So... Toyota WS and Aisin WS are not the same.

[toyotacarnage]

Totally get that the fluid isn't top notch but just was curious if that's limiting the transmissions from living a long life (200k miles or more).

Typical failure I see is valve body galling. I notice this on both the u660, u760e units. B1 apply boost valve as little as 76k miles. (this results in lazy shifts)

120k-130k moniker C2 control valve shears the valve body resulting in jerky shifts in the 4-5-6 or 4th gear slam (you'll feel this around 38mph-47mph)

B1, B2, B3, C2 Accumulator Pistons score their bores. (This starts as soon as 66k mileage mark and is the first wear point in the transmission valve body) cast accumulator on aluminum.

Hence when people do a full fluid pull through the system their shifts are erratic.

If you're content with WS, stick with it. I'm just letting anyone know if there's a better fluid on the market, go with it.

Here's some scenarios I've dealt with thus far.

The 282k 2016 Toyota Camry SE I've serviced for Uber/lyft/Doordash, Amazon prime delivery use, lived on maxlife transmission fluid since mileage 1,500, I've made the suggestion to my customer to switch to this when they got their car. This car has well over 9,000 idling hours on it. (This would be a family friends car I do periodic maintenance to. He prefers me to do full fluid pulls at 60k) first oil change was done at 500mi, transmission was done at 1500. I see this car once a year for his annual Uber inspection. He does the oil changes himself and uses Rotella T6 5w40. I tell him it's 0w20, however, he's a part time trucker and sticks by what he has on hand. Its a vehicle used between him and his wife. I had installed the sonnax zip-kit in this car at 207k mainly for longevity reasons.

Have another, 2013 Corolla with the u341 transmission with 121k serviced around 40k and uses AMSOIL SS, my niece loved that car on sight, literally just purged that car of all of it's fluids.

2018 Prius with 110k which lives on Toyota WS, it's been okay so far.

Last vehicle has 155k, 5,000 idling hours- 2017 rav4 used for deliveries, u760e who decided to stick with the Toyota bottled WS with a heap of problems pertaining to the valve body, well now, he does a lot of manual shifting which would explain the galling of the valvebody. This SUV really sees no downtime. this one I would say is driven hard as the Camry. However, they came to me because the dealership said it'll be 5k to rebuild the transmission. with service records on hand saying it was drained and filled every 36k, it was dark.

Takeaways:

Can the bottled Toyota stuff make it to 100k without error? No, not at all. I would say that's a little too late. Can the transmission make it to 200k with little invention, not possibly. Can 30k drain and fill intervals with WS make it, most definitely. Will universal ATFs out perform, yes by far. It's the frequency of the services you perform.

 

[tvaughn]

Typical failure I see is valve body galling. I notice this on both the u660, u760e units. B1 apply boost valve as little as 76k miles. (this results in lazy shifts)

120k-130k moniker C2 control valve shears the valve body resulting in jerky shifts in the 4-5-6 or 4th gear slam (you'll feel this around 38mph-47mph)

B1, B2, B3, C2 Accumulator Pistons score their bores. (This starts as soon as 66k mileage mark and is the first wear point in the transmission valve body) cast accumulator on aluminum.

Hence when people do a full fluid pull through the system their shifts are erratic.

If you're content with WS, stick with it. I'm just letting anyone know if there's a better fluid on the market, go with it.

Here's some scenarios I've dealt with thus far.

The 282k 2016 Toyota Camry SE I've serviced for Uber/lyft/Doordash, Amazon prime delivery use, lived on maxlife transmission fluid since mileage 1,500, I've made the suggestion to my customer to switch to this when they got their car. This car has well over 9,000 idling hours on it. (This would be a family friends car I do periodic maintenance to. He prefers me to do full fluid pulls at 60k) first oil change was done at 500mi, transmission was done at 1500. I see this car once a year for his annual Uber inspection. He does the oil changes himself and uses Rotella T6 5w40. I tell him it's 0w20, however, he's a part time trucker and sticks by what he has on hand. Its a vehicle used between him and his wife. I had installed the sonnax zip-kit in this car at 207k mainly for longevity reasons.

Have another, 2013 Corolla with the u341 transmission with 121k serviced around 40k and uses AMSOIL SS, my niece loved that car on sight, literally just purged that car of all of it's fluids.

2018 Prius with 110k which lives on Toyota WS, it's been okay so far.

Last vehicle has 155k, 5,000 idling hours- 2017 rav4 used for deliveries, u760e who decided to stick with the Toyota bottled WS with a heap of problems pertaining to the valve body, well now, he does a lot of manual shifting which would explain the galling of the valvebody. This SUV really sees no downtime. this one I would say is driven hard as the Camry. However, they came to me because the dealership said it'll be 5k to rebuild the transmission. with service records on hand saying it was drained and filled every 36k, it was dark.

Takeaways:

Can the bottled Toyota stuff make it to 100k without error? No, not at all. I would say that's a little too late. Can the transmission make it to 200k with little invention, not possibly. Can 30k drain and fill intervals with WS make it, most definitely. Will universal ATFs out perform, yes by far. It's the frequency of the services you perform.

All great info, appreciate the insight. What fluid are you replacing the WS with? Odd to me that Toyota specs a great 0w20 from ExxonMobil but slacks on their transmission fluid. I had considered buying the Aisin WS fluid.

 

[loneryder]

It would not surprise me if Toyota's WS formulation was thinner for their CAFE goals, but you might also compare the cst of Maxlife ATF and see where that falls. I think you're fine to keep the Aisin stuff in there if the Maxlife ATF cst is close. Lots of members here only use the Maxlife and have reported great results.

Toyota cares about CAFE, Aisin cares about transmission longevity.

 

[loneryder]

Valvoline says their Maxlife trans fluid can be used in Mercedes 7229. 7 sp transmissions. Since it’s cheaper, lots of MB owners have tried it and a lot have had transmission problems after installing it. No aftermarket parts or fluids seem to work on MBs.

 

[tvaughn]

Valvoline says their Maxlife trans fluid can be used in Mercedes 7229. 7 sp transmissions. Since it’s cheaper, lots of MB owners have tried it and a lot have had transmission problems after installing it. No aftermarket parts or fluids seem to work on MBs.

The idea that one transmission fluid can work with so many different transmissions doesn't seem sensible to me.

 

[UG_Passat]

Also, in the video, he talks about Flashpoint in the SDS, and they are in the same range.
Pour point for the Aisin isn't particularly great. It doesn't scream Group IV base stock like Amsoil Signature Series or Redline D6.

But, since HPL is popular right now, why not HPL Green? It's a Group III base stock ATF, but did they also through in some esters? You can get the CC version which is a Group IV base stock version. Too bad you can't buy it in individual quarts. As for my Hybrid transmission and rear differential, I need about 7 quarts total, but that means I have to buy 12 quarts.

 

[toyotacarnage]

All great info, appreciate the insight. What fluid are you replacing the WS with? Odd to me that Toyota specs a great 0w20 from ExxonMobil but slacks on their transmission fluid. I had considered buying the Aisin WS fluid.

Depending on the application I sway between a few brands. U300 series goes back into early 2000's which called for the original spec of type T-IV (they switched it to WS if I can recall 2004) so those will get the MAG1 Multi vehicle ATF. Shifts are more consistent, where I get a decent, yet consistent graph in shift activity.

Same will go for the Axxx-A5xxx lineup

U6xxx/U7xxx and U880 get maxlife which is darn near Toyota WS on viscosity.

A6xxx-AExxx will also get the maxlife, ACDELCO DEXRONVI or amsoil signature series (this varies on the customer concern/cost.)

When you get down to disassembly or plugging in a tool which will monitor the transmission's shift activities, you will get a great idea what product works well for your application. (My personal two favorites are TopDON and the snap-on Solus) both are very good to use to read transmission fluid temperature. Toyota TIS software does the same thing; however the subscription fee and cable is pretty costly. If you're budget conscious, torquepro with a ELM327 will give you similar results.

Monitor shift and temperature


A great example of fluids, based on countless oil analysis given on the website:

Aisin WS fluid looks promising based on oil analysis, same will go for Beck&Arnley. I have used customer supplied fluids with great results.

On a bigger picture scale, every manufacturer seems to blend their product with different levels of zinc, phosphorus, calcium, magnesium and boron. Toyota (ExxonMobil) falls short, I would like to see a little molybdenum for that extra wear protection.

If, I was a regular person looking for a great value maxlife would take the cake. If I want to extend my interval 20,30k longer than a manufacturers recommendation, amsoil has that guarantee. If you're doing your drain and fills on time while considering your usage, total hours and miles, yes the home brew WS fluid is acceptable. It boils down to your commitment in keeping your vehicle well maintained.

Based on current statements, it appears you do a very good job at that. Which is what brought you here for the betterment of your vehicle.


I choose my potions selectively based on sound data I've researched and seen in hand while supporting an unbiased view. Hopefully this is helpful. I'm just exhausted at the fact some users here are hellstrung on the fact and well I understand some of those worried about a warranty-- it's nice when it's there, but ****ed if it's not. The question remains, when a warranty is thrown into the mix, do you own the car or does the manufacturer? (These are the questions necessary to ask when factoring your course of maintenance) I came to bitog circa 2010 when another customer tapped my shoulder "Do you really want to use Fram on that car?" I gladly switched to the Purolator on the shelf.

The motor oil great viscosity debate still continues, that's a double edged sword I don't want to touch, if it's working, it's working for a given application. There's always exceptions when a higher viscosity recommendation given bearing tolerances in an engine or usage.

Scenario 1(5w-50 in the Ford mustang 5.0vvt on drag days, scenario 2 Ford will recommend you use 5w20 on spirited driving.)


It's kinda like restaurants, when you pay for a good meal, they recommend you spend a little more to get a free desert. It's a catch 22 scenario.

 

[toyotacarnage]

Toyota Prius and Camry analysis reports sent out 7/7. Will report back with Toyota WS fluid when Blackstone labs is done

 

[toyotacarnage]

 

[toyotacarnage]

Both cars are driven rather hard, surprised to see very high metal content.

 

[ARB1977]

I’ve got about 7 qrts of Amsoil SS blue cap in my Tacoma. The rest is Maxlife. 40K since the change and all is good. The same Amsoil is in the Honda DW1 spec.

 

[dkryan]

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Also, in the video, he talks about Flashpoint in the SDS, and they are in the same range.
Pour point for the Aisin isn't particularly great. It doesn't scream Group IV base stock like Amsoil Signature Series or Redline D6.

But, since HPL is popular right now, why not HPL Green? It's a Group III base stock ATF, but did they also through in some esters? You can get the CC version which is a Group IV base stock version. Too bad you can't buy it in individual quarts. As for my Hybrid transmission and rear differential, I need about 7 quarts total, but that means I have to buy 12 quarts.

Have you changed the ATF in your tranny and rear diff?

 

[apollo18]

Weber Auto on YouTube covers a pretty good census on transmission designs and you'll be amazed how many auto manufacturers use each other's parts. Take the 2016 Malibu with the 2L for an example, it uses the AF50-8 aka u880 used in the Camry which calls for DexWS or DEXRONVI. OR The Ford fusion hybrid/cmax that use the same power train as the gen2 Prius which calls for MERCON LV in Ford. I guess manufacturers are using the same formula, however spec'd to the OE. What are the changes do they make in the home brew? I've used AC Delco bottled DEXRON vi in a 2017 Toyota Rav equipped with the u760 with no issue.

Within a given statement, could it be Ford, GM, Toyota are just using their own given spec?

So looking at the product sheet of your multi vehicle ATF's. I believe they know more that meets the eye, Valvoline for a huge example: well known and trusted.



Being the backbone of actually taking apart these transmissions, I see exact designs internally and externally just different bellhousings.

In my actual findings...

Is Valvoline maxlife an exceptional product. I can simply vouch for this one, yes. It's a great product. I've noticed uniform shifting amongst almost anything I've put it in.

Amsoil fuel efficient SS? Yes, there's a caveat, I noticed transmissions upshifts a little harsh with it, even in the Hondas P79 when cold, this goes away when things warm up, some may find this annoying

Note amsoil OE fuel efficient formula runs a little thinner than it's signature series counterpart. Using my 14 Camaro as a test pig with the 6L50, harsh engagements when cold and you can hear it clunk.

In the past using Amsoil signature series ATF (red cap) in the 4r70w in manual down shift engagements, I've heard the torque converter chirp. Same results in the AOD.

Supertech dex/Merc low viscosity, 2015 Prius P410 seamlessly transitions from power mode to hybrid mode without the jolt. This product is also suitable in vehicles calling for WS.

Citgo multi vehicle synthetic ATF- Smooth transitions. No complaints here, just another run of the mill ATF

Pennzoil platinum ATF BULK, same as the Toyota WS, no change in data or shift patterns.

MAG1 low viscosity and traditional, same results of maxlife, it just works.

Having to maintain a fleet of vehicles, you can try different cocktails of brands.

Mag1 and maxlife offer great products that perform equally well. Everything else is just paying for more.

Castrol CVT/ATF, I'll report back once it has accumulated mileage. I currently run that in a 2016 Honda fit, 2020 Corolla and 2017 Elantra. So two CVT's and a step shift transmission.

My census, give the maxlife a try.

Toyota stock WS is garbage and I feel Mobil could've done more to make the fluid wholesome, I guess they were just the lowest bidder.

hey how is the Castrol CVT/ATF for u? thinking on it for a toyota

 

[toyotacarnage]

hey how is the Castrol CVT/ATF for u? thinking on it for a toyota

Castrol.... If you are going this route, per Castrol's directions is to remove any remaining old fluid. My way is to remove the cooling puck from the transmission and make a fitting to slip into the bore of the supply side; if memory serves correctly, it is the left hole on the transmission. You can do a thorough flush this way, be explicitly cautious doing it this route and to do it when the transmission is cold.

 

[apollo18]

Castrol.... If you are going this route, per Castrol's directions is to remove any remaining old fluid. My way is to remove the cooling puck from the transmission and make a fitting to slip into the bore of the supply side; if memory serves correctly, it is the left hole on the transmission. You can do a thorough flush this way, be explicitly cautious doing it this route and to do it when the transmission is cold.

Ty but you recommend that fluid? The castrol atf/CVT?

 

[toyotacarnage]

It's a pretty good fluid, you can't go wrong.

 

[nicholas]

Hey all! I recently did three drain/fills on my 09 Vibe (Matrix) with Aisin WS. I figured, Aisin made the transmission, it's spec'd for WS fluid, can't go wrong. It seems to be shifting and working well as far as I can tell. (better than with the cloudy gray/purple mystery fluid that was in there) Just out of curiosity, I dug into the details of Aisin WS, Toyota WS, and a few alternatives just to see if one was maybe better than the others. Turns out Aisin WS and Toyota WS are very different! The most glaring difference is viscosity. Aisin: 34.88 cst @40C / 7.332 cst @100C Toyota: 23cst @40C / 5.45cst @100C. The ingredients are a little different as well, though I'm not entirely sure what they all are. The flash points are about the same (174/175) which seems kind of low to me? Couldn't find anything on viscosity index. Anyway, here are the MSDS for both fluids:
Toyota: https://cdn.website-editor.net/6622da50fd3744b3b1560a41005a6921/files/uploaded/00289-ATFWS.pdf

Aisin: https://attachments.priuschat.com/attachment-files/2020/02/182601_MSDS-English-AISIN-AFT-0WS.pdf

As I said, transmission seems to be working well, but I'd like any opinions, explanations, and/or advice from those of you who know what these sheets mean. Is the Aisin WS a good atf? It doesn't look very impressive to me, but it may be great. I don't know. Thanks in advance!

Wow Asin is thick like an old dex3.
If you live in a cold place I might think of swapping some out.

 

[56Cummins]

Wow Asin is thick like an old dex3.
If you live in a cold place I might think of swapping some out.

AISIN

aisinaftermarket.com

In 2021 they have it listed as 5.6-6.2cst. Matches Toyotas roughly

 

[nicholas]

AISIN

aisinaftermarket.com

In 2021 they have it listed as 5.6-6.2cst. Matches Toyotas roughly

That's good