So much for Honda transmissions...
- Thread starter The Critic
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Honda warranty is 5-years/60,000 miles for the powertrain, so you have plenty of time. Why not take it to the dealer now? At least have it documented in case in doesn't blow until shortly after the warranty runs out.
The government fleet Im familiar with (6 years driving an interceptor) went strictly by the book as far as maintenance went. Every 3K you were in for maintenance...or it could mean your job!!
During the 6 years I was quite intimate with Fords fleet vehicles, I can attest to their durability and longevity. I never saw was with a motor problem. I saw 1 vehicle in over 40 on the road have an axle break, but I did see quite a few tranny shudders at 100K although I never saw a tranny failure.
For real though, if Ford is such dog turd and Honda is the cats meow, how can one explain the fact that FORD dominates the fleet vehicle market??
You can not sit there and tell me that upfront price is the reason.
If Honda or Toyota is SOOO much better and it CAN BE PROVEN, then why do the vast majority of municipalities and fleet purchases go through FORD?
Can anyone out there actually argue that FORD does NOT own the fleet market??
During the 6 years I was quite intimate with Fords fleet vehicles, I can attest to their durability and longevity. I never saw was with a motor problem. I saw 1 vehicle in over 40 on the road have an axle break, but I did see quite a few tranny shudders at 100K although I never saw a tranny failure.
For real though, if Ford is such dog turd and Honda is the cats meow, how can one explain the fact that FORD dominates the fleet vehicle market??
You can not sit there and tell me that upfront price is the reason.
If Honda or Toyota is SOOO much better and it CAN BE PROVEN, then why do the vast majority of municipalities and fleet purchases go through FORD?
Can anyone out there actually argue that FORD does NOT own the fleet market??
Cost. Cost of parts plus initial purchase.
Honda/Toyota vehicles have better refinement and better quality, but Ford/GM will give you the same basic outfit with near equal reliability at lower initial cost. Fleets could care less about having more "refined" cars. As long as it's cheap and reliable, it's a keeper.
Honda/Toyota vehicles have better refinement and better quality, but Ford/GM will give you the same basic outfit with near equal reliability at lower initial cost. Fleets could care less about having more "refined" cars. As long as it's cheap and reliable, it's a keeper.
"It seems like Ford minivans are junk because they have bad transmissions and Honda minivans are good vans with bad transmissions."
Yup. A coworker snickers a bit about my plebian Taurii, I have two as they're one of the few mid sized sedans with a bench seat up front, but his reliable Accura needed a new tranny at 35k miles.
Yup. A coworker snickers a bit about my plebian Taurii, I have two as they're one of the few mid sized sedans with a bench seat up front, but his reliable Accura needed a new tranny at 35k miles.
Definitely a double standard when it comes to Japanese vehicle problems vs. American. Acura CL, TL, Honda Accord, Odyssey had weak trannies for several model years with only bandaid fixes. This makes the vehicles unreliable and of poor quality. And yet people still stand behind these vehicles because of the nameplate's *reputation* for quality products. No less than FOUR friends of mine with Accords, TL, CL all had to have their trannies replaced before 70k mi. A few friends of mine have 90s Ford Escorts with 150k and 200k on them with nothing more than basic maintenance. I like to judge these things on a vehicle by vehicle basis and not nameplates, since all carmakers make some great vehicles and some duds.
I see people citing examples of the great Fords.
Guess what they are on consumer Reports reliable list and recommended used car buys, the Ford Escort and Ford Crown Victoria.
The Ford Windstar is on a used car to avoid list. Interestingly enough the Honda Odyssey only make average - slightly above average reliability 99-2003. A big black spot on the tranny. And people doubt Consumer Reports is a reflection of reality?
Guess what they are on consumer Reports reliable list and recommended used car buys, the Ford Escort and Ford Crown Victoria.
The Ford Windstar is on a used car to avoid list. Interestingly enough the Honda Odyssey only make average - slightly above average reliability 99-2003. A big black spot on the tranny. And people doubt Consumer Reports is a reflection of reality?
Bad economics is the reason Ford owns fleet market. They would rather churn at cars at no profit and keep a work force employeed maybe for PR than actually turn a profit like Toyota and Honda. Fleet sales get rid of excess inventory that you cannot sell otherwise.
Honda/Toyota are interested in individual consumer sales where profit margins are higher and keeping their production status quo. Flooding the market with cars does not leave a desirable factor either for your cars either. Fleet cars have low resale killing the consumer value where those sales generate the best profits.
Given all that if I come to the day of buying a minivan (I forsee) I would purchase domestic used. They are so worthless used in comparison to Honda/Toyota I would put up with a supposed higher chance of major failure to pay 40-50% less.
The Crown Vics are a rugged vehicle that has been used in fleets for many years and I'm sure both Ford and the maintenance department crews learned a lot about making them work in that application.
Ford also has discounts for fleet sales that probably give them an advantage.
The Crown Vics may be good vehicles.
The Ford Power Stroke diesel trucks I know about had drivetrain problems in manual or automatic, the engine was stronger than the automatic trans or clutch.
The engines dusted at low mileage due to a 'silent recall' problem with the air box. Expensive motors were ruined at 40K due to leaks in the plastic intake/ air filter parts.
The brakes and suspension were high maintenance and usually required complete replacement of all parts rather than an few wear items.
Dodge and Chevy diesel pickups may be a bit better, but they have had their problems as well.
If I had to generalize, I'd say that American cars still leave a lot to be desired in terms of quality, reliability, drivability.
My new 05 Chevy Silverado Crew Cab Duramax started having warranty problems at 300 miles and was towed to the dealer 8 times in 7000 miles before I finally got it fixed.
I had to pull every code from the OnStar diagnostic and demand that the selling dealer's service department escalated to GM's highest tech support team and run down every code and fix the problem not the symptoms.
GM's support and knowledge of the Allison transmission was weak. I like the transmission, but the dealer network was ill prepared, many dealerships in my area don't have mechanics who are trained on Allison.
I want to buy American cars made in American factories...but GM and Ford give me little to choose from or work with.
I'd buy a new Vette or Mustang if I needed one, but I like BMW's more. I can use diesel pickups , and the US companies still have the market, but the vehicles available could be a lot better.
Toyota, Nissan, or Honda could easily give them a run for the money with future models.
Ford also has discounts for fleet sales that probably give them an advantage.
The Crown Vics may be good vehicles.
The Ford Power Stroke diesel trucks I know about had drivetrain problems in manual or automatic, the engine was stronger than the automatic trans or clutch.
The engines dusted at low mileage due to a 'silent recall' problem with the air box. Expensive motors were ruined at 40K due to leaks in the plastic intake/ air filter parts.
The brakes and suspension were high maintenance and usually required complete replacement of all parts rather than an few wear items.
Dodge and Chevy diesel pickups may be a bit better, but they have had their problems as well.
If I had to generalize, I'd say that American cars still leave a lot to be desired in terms of quality, reliability, drivability.
My new 05 Chevy Silverado Crew Cab Duramax started having warranty problems at 300 miles and was towed to the dealer 8 times in 7000 miles before I finally got it fixed.
I had to pull every code from the OnStar diagnostic and demand that the selling dealer's service department escalated to GM's highest tech support team and run down every code and fix the problem not the symptoms.
GM's support and knowledge of the Allison transmission was weak. I like the transmission, but the dealer network was ill prepared, many dealerships in my area don't have mechanics who are trained on Allison.
I want to buy American cars made in American factories...but GM and Ford give me little to choose from or work with.
I'd buy a new Vette or Mustang if I needed one, but I like BMW's more. I can use diesel pickups , and the US companies still have the market, but the vehicles available could be a lot better.
Toyota, Nissan, or Honda could easily give them a run for the money with future models.
This is true if your entire concept of a 'quality' is no major mechanical failure in 100k.
Our 2000 125K mile Odyssey has infintely better ride/handling/fit and finish/fewer rattles than ANY brand new Ford or Chevy.
If you are oblivious to fit and finish/squeaks and rattles/sloppy steering/ride and handling quality/ergonomics, then Ford or Chevy is for you.
After driving a friends brand new Trail Blazer for 800 miles, I couldn't believe anybody could pick such a complete piece of ****. But then I realized that there are plenty of people who just aren't aware of ergonomics or fit and finish.
I'd rather have to replace my Odyssey's tranny every 50K than drive a Trailblazer 'trouble' free for 300K.
BlueWorld- so what you are saying is that you value NVH quality over engine/drivetrain reliability. I would say you are in the minority on that one.
First of all, I do not agree on the ride/handling/fit/finish of domestics vs. japanese imports. It varies vehicle model to vehicle model. Comparing your minivan to a truck-based SUV is not a fair comparison. Ford's Freestar is a very quiet and smooth riding vehicle, very comparable to the Odyssey. Ever ridden in one?
My definition of quality is no major mechanical failure in 150-200K, and the Escorts made it. The Acura CL, Acura TL, Honda Accord, Honda Oddysey did not. I think most people would rather ride in and fix a domestic vehicle with a few squeaks/rattles (there are often TSBs on these things on both domestics and imports) than be stranded on the side of the road with a failed transmission, only to receive a bandaid fixed tranny that will likely only last another 70k.
Honda's vehicles with trannies doomed to fail are better than Ford/Chevy's vehicles with squeaks/rattles? Sorry, but your argument makes little sense, and is a perfect example of the double standard many people have when it comes to import vs. domestic quality.
BTW, I own a '97 Lexus LX and a '92 Ford Aerostar. Both have been very reliable.
[ August 29, 2006, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: moving2 ]
First of all, I do not agree on the ride/handling/fit/finish of domestics vs. japanese imports. It varies vehicle model to vehicle model. Comparing your minivan to a truck-based SUV is not a fair comparison. Ford's Freestar is a very quiet and smooth riding vehicle, very comparable to the Odyssey. Ever ridden in one?
My definition of quality is no major mechanical failure in 150-200K, and the Escorts made it. The Acura CL, Acura TL, Honda Accord, Honda Oddysey did not. I think most people would rather ride in and fix a domestic vehicle with a few squeaks/rattles (there are often TSBs on these things on both domestics and imports) than be stranded on the side of the road with a failed transmission, only to receive a bandaid fixed tranny that will likely only last another 70k.
Honda's vehicles with trannies doomed to fail are better than Ford/Chevy's vehicles with squeaks/rattles? Sorry, but your argument makes little sense, and is a perfect example of the double standard many people have when it comes to import vs. domestic quality.
BTW, I own a '97 Lexus LX and a '92 Ford Aerostar. Both have been very reliable.
[ August 29, 2006, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: moving2 ]
Yes. And also a Chrysler Pacifica. We really liked the exterior styling, but the interior fit and finish and junk plastic interior, along with noodlely loose steering and ride quality on both were pathetic compared to even our then six year old Odyssey.
Like I said, if that's all you care about, and are oblivious or don't care about the rattles, sloppy steering, loose handling, and cheap low end plastic junk interiors, then you are absolutely right in passing on an Acura/Honda.
Yes they are, unless you are oblivious to the squeaks/rattles/sloppy steering/cheap interiors.
It only seems like a double standard if none of these matter to you. Believe it or not, there is no shortage of people to whom these things matter the most, and no shortage of people who only keep their cars for 3 years/40k miles.
If you're only going to keep a car for three years, give me the one that's tight from the start.
Also 'doomed to fail' is gross exaggeration with a 12% initial field failure rate and a 2% field failure rate for the rebuilds, and the vast majority of failures didn't result in 'stranded by the road'.
If you don't see a night and day difference between these in terms of ride/handling/fit/finish you
- have lemon of an LX
- or bought a used LX that the previous owner(s) totally trashed
- or just can't tell (or care) the difference
I know people who think a Buick LaCrosse is just as good a car as an Audi A6 having driven and ridden in both, and are completely oblivious to the things that are so blatantly obvious/matter to me that I think they must be high on crack.
I only wish I was one of those people.
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