Small hand, big capacity

[Al]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
The Seattle area is that bad. Antifa, anarchists, and the occasional mall terrorist further north where a person I knew was shot dead trying to help his wife escape.https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/24/washington-shooting-four-people-killed-in-mall-attack The city almost prides itself on mayhem. And it's spreading. Racial tensions as well are mounting. Couple that with the meth problems in the outlying rural areas, and you just never know when crime will strike. No, it's not Houston, Chicago, or Detroit.....yet.

Who would of thought..I would have thought that the area was made up of folks that spent most of their time at Starbucks, spent lots of time on bike trails, and otherwise strove for the healthy good life. Sounds worse than Chicago. I I assume the Mayor is similar to Rahm Emanuel (Chicago)..to busy worrying about political correctness instead of crime.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: andrewg
The Seattle area is that bad. Antifa, anarchists, and the occasional mall terrorist further north where a person I knew was shot dead trying to help his wife escape.https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/24/washington-shooting-four-people-killed-in-mall-attack The city almost prides itself on mayhem. And it's spreading. Racial tensions as well are mounting. Couple that with the meth problems in the outlying rural areas, and you just never know when crime will strike. No, it's not Houston, Chicago, or Detroit.....yet.

Who would of thought..I would have thought that the area was made up of folks that spent most of their time at Starbucks, spent lots of time on bike trails, and otherwise strove for the healthy good life. Sounds worse than Chicago. I I assume the Mayor is similar to Rahm Emanuel (Chicago)..to busy worrying about political correctness instead of crime.


Recent mayor had to step down due to sexual scandals (multiple). He was allegedly taking advantage of young boys. New female mayor is also of the same lifestyle. Married to another woman...and just as in tune with certain political agendas as the previous (lost count) mayors.
Seattle was a great city thirty plus years ago. Much more friendly and "normal". It had a unique flavor as a gateway to Alaska and Asia. Now it's just exactly like every other city with the same agenda.....including the idiot citizens that keep voting in the same types over and over again. They all drink the same Kool-Aid (or Starbucks). Do they work on crime? Yes...increasing it by welcoming illegals (sanctuary) and the homeless in droves.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: andrewg
The Seattle area is that bad. Antifa, anarchists, and the occasional mall terrorist further north where a person I knew was shot dead trying to help his wife escape.https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/24/washington-shooting-four-people-killed-in-mall-attack The city almost prides itself on mayhem. And it's spreading. Racial tensions as well are mounting. Couple that with the meth problems in the outlying rural areas, and you just never know when crime will strike. No, it's not Houston, Chicago, or Detroit.....yet.

Jeez. I guess me moving to Sequim when I retire is something I am going to have to think about now.


Sequim would be a far better choice than the Seattle/Tacoma area. Many places east of the mountains would be better as well. Spokane is turning though....like a curdled milk.

 

[Cujet]

Oh, I forgot, those 3 attacking pit bulls can be easily dispatched by a panicked, wounded, but well trained victim armed with 6 rounds.....

Ummm, no. It often takes 4 or 5 rounds to stop ONE pit bull.

Those that need to justify a low round count are, quite simply, wrong.

Capacity and capability is essential.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Oh, I forgot, those 3 attacking pit bulls can be easily dispatched by a panicked, wounded, but well trained victim armed with 6 rounds.....

Ummm, no. It often takes 4 or 5 rounds to stop ONE pit bull.

Those that need to justify a low round count are, quite simply, wrong.

Capacity and capability is essential.

I get attacked by 3 pitbulls every day. Think about it..if it "often takes 5 or 6 rounds to stop one pitbull..what do you suppose the other two are doing while you are missing the first one (with 5 or 6 shots). Again..sorry..another case of misrepresenting reality. BTW a g42 carries 6+1 (not 6).
How do how many shots do you think YOU could get on a 1' target at 6 feet in 2 seconds? I would like a realistic answer.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
... I'm considering the Walther PPQ M2. .... The Glock 19 may be another consideration. Maybe the CZ75 as well? ...


I'm familiar with the PPQ, but do not own one, so won't comment on it specifically.

Walther ( Umarex ) has built their new North American HQ not far from my warehouse of junk, so besides having quite a few of them, ( Walther's ) but not this one, I would encourage you to strongly consider the Walther.

The G19 and CZ75 are really different, and not very comparable, imo - polymer / striker vs metal / hammer. I have more glocks ( sadly ) than CZ's, but I like the CZ's much, much, better. CZ's are a well made, highly accurate, weapon that are good value for the money; with but a few exceptions, I think Glocks are a mediocre weapon with poor value for the money, but either will work fine for you, I'm sure.

It will be your gun, so what you like best out of these three you have mentioned, is the right answer.

edit: given where you live, worst case scenario, a CZ can club someone senseless. Can't say that about the other two ....

 

[i_hate_autofraud]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: i_hate_autofraud
I hear that Beretta 92 series has steel slides but aluminum frames! Surely Military
M9 are all steel? Are there any all steel versions I can get?

I don't mind aluminum on Ar15s, but I was turned off by Walther P1 9mm with weak frames
that were later fitted with a steel insert later.


You won't find anything with a steel frame in a Beretta 92 / M-9 series. They all have Aluminum frames. Even the Stainless Inox Models have Aluminum frames. Same for most of the Sigs. With the exception of the Stainless Elite Models. Now even they're going to Aluminum frames. If you want an all steel handgun, go with the CZ-75's. They're still manufactured from all steel, in either carbon or Stainless. Both in polished or matte finished.


Many will argue Aluminum frames are "just as good". But having spent my entire working life in the metal working and machining trades, you'll never convince me of it. Aluminum is extremely soft, and machines like butter. Which is why the manufacturers love it. Tooling lasts much longer, and higher surface speeds and feed rates can be utilized, cutting manufacturing time and cost substantially. And even when it's hard anodized, the coating is only a few tenths, (.0002), thick. I much prefer all steel in a handgun, like the CZ-75's and Government 1911's. Browning Hi-Power's are also manufactured from all steel. But they are no longer in production. But you can still find them plentiful on the used market.



Thanks billt460!

Aluminum frames on an M9? I heard stories they were breaking, but thought they were all steel at the time,
pal of mine makes magazine parts back in 2004. No wonder troops are unhappy!

7000 series aluminum in ARs is great and other non-gun applications, harder then near dead soft 2000, 6000 series,
though there is a weird heat treat for aluminum but won't get you to Rockwell 45-50 C scale!

Looks like I'll stick with my mid 80's CZ75 and Springfield 1911, though it would be nice to try something else!

 

[john_pifer]

Originally Posted By: Al


I feel very comfortable with 6 rounds in my G-42.


Sounds like you’re reassuring yourself about your own decision to carry a pistol with only 6 rounds.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: john_pifer

Sounds like you’re reassuring yourself about your own decision to carry a pistol with only 6 rounds.

I was just making a statement. You think its reassurance..I think its cofidence. But whatever. We are all free to choose.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Al
You don't need more bullets..you need more training. More bullets in the hands of someone that is not highly trained is a bad idea. (no disrespect).
The typical scenario would be one person threatening or shooting some (probably not you) in your immediate vicinity. The usual course here is to get out of dodge. You are not trained to engage a shooter in an area where there are other folks.

If you actually think of possible realistic scenarios (which no one does)..you will get it. Most consider the unrealistic scenarios which occur in the same frequency as getting struck by lightening when going from your house to the car.

I feel very comfortable with 6 rounds in my G-42.


In regards to the highlighted part, Ive watched dozens and dozens of debriefing videos after use of force incidents by police officers. And something that sticks with me, is that many never felt they had enough ammo. And most that have been in a shooting, would MUCH rather have a full size, full capacity gun (G17, Sig P226, than a single stack 1911 or similar. Some even felt that having to reload a smaller capacity gun could have actually cost them their lives. A reload takes 2 seconds, which is an eternity in a gun fight.

And you cant argue the police officer vs citizen metric that you tried earlier. They face the same threats. And Joe Citizen could get in the same gun battle as officer friendly.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Many will argue Aluminum frames are "just as good". But having spent my entire working life in the metal working and machining trades, you'll never convince me of it. Aluminum is extremely soft, and machines like butter. Which is why the manufacturers love it. Tooling lasts much longer, and higher surface speeds and feed rates can be utilized, cutting manufacturing time and cost substantially. And even when it's hard anodized, the coating is only a few tenths, (.0002), thick. I much prefer all steel in a handgun, like the CZ-75's and Government 1911's. Browning Hi-Power's are also manufactured from all steel. But they are no longer in production. But you can still find them plentiful on the used market.


The life span of a Sig P226 (and other such similar guns) is measured in the hundreds of thousands of rounds. The cost of the ammo (100K rounds or more), FAR exceeds the cost of the pistol. Is that not durable enough?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
The life span of a Sig P226 (and other such similar guns) is measured in the hundreds of thousands of rounds. The cost of the ammo (100K rounds or more), FAR exceeds the cost of the pistol. Is that not durable enough?


"Hundreds of thousands of rounds" is being overly optimistic. Aluminum frame rails wear down because the metal is softer, and recoil forces work harden the frame over time, which causes cracking that has occurred on many of the Beretta M-9 service pistols. This causes the relatively lower frame life expectancy you see advertised about the 92. The Sig will keep going longer, (many of the SEAL guns are over 100,000 rounds), but the slide to frame fit is noticeably looser on used Sigs, than on steel framed guns after the same round count.

The 92 may also need a locking block replaced between 15,000 and 25,000 rounds. Depends what you've been shooting. The heavy slide Brigadier models beat up the frame and locking block less. I never understood why they never went with the heavier Brigadier slide on the M-9.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
[

In regards to the highlighted part, Ive watched dozens and dozens of debriefing videos after use of force incidents by police officers. And something that sticks with me, is that many never felt they had enough ammo. And most that have been in a shooting, would MUCH rather have a full size, full capacity gun (G17, Sig P226, than a single stack 1911 or similar. Some even felt that having to reload a smaller capacity gun could have actually cost them their lives. A reload takes 2 seconds, which is an eternity in a gun fight.

And you cant argue the police officer vs citizen metric that you tried earlier. They face the same threats. And Joe Citizen could get in the same gun battle as officer friendly.


Apples to oranges:
Cops rush in. They are morally mandated to do so.citizens shouldn't

Cops of necessity will need to be proactive on using the firearm..citizens shouldn't. They will need to take more shots from disadvantaged positions. Of course they feel they "need" more ammo

Average cop is not a great shooter. Many non cops with good training and lots of shooting on training tactics. will do better than average cop.

I feel I am well trained. But I am not trained ( mentally and probably not physically) to be in a running gun battle. And if I am not 90++% of JoeConcealedCarriers are not..the danger is they don't realize it. I do.

At the end of the day we will all do what we think is best. And we will have a waaaay greater chance of dying bc we didn't take the more relevant precaution of having our own AED close to us.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Al
Apples to oranges:
Cops rush in. They are morally mandated to do so.citizens shouldn't

Cops of necessity will need to be proactive on using the firearm..citizens shouldn't. They will need to take more shots from disadvantaged positions. Of course they feel they "need" more ammo

Average cop is not a great shooter. Many non cops with good training and lots of shooting on training tactics. will do better than average cop.

I feel I am well trained. But I am not trained ( mentally and probably not physically) to be in a running gun battle. And if I am not 90++% of JoeConcealedCarriers are not..the danger is they don't realize it. I do.

At the end of the day we will all do what we think is best. And we will have a waaaay greater chance of dying bc we didn't take the more relevant precaution of having our own AED close to us.


You keep harping on this. A gun fight is a gun fight. When it happens, it isn't going to matter who's in it, or where or how it takes place when bullets start flying in both directions. You keep saying most cops are not properly trained, and are not good shots. Well here is a big news flash for you..... Neither are most citizens. Except of course here, and other similar places on the Internet. No one is "trained" to be in a running gun battle.... Until they're in one. And when that happens there is absolutely no advantage in having a weapon that has less ammunition. Regardless if you're a citizen, or a cop. You may think you're the exception to that rule. But if you are, you are in very rarified air. And you are taking a very big chance if you ever have to prove it. Because your decision making is nothing but all risk, coupled with no reward.

So...... You are trying to argue ill trained cops need more ammunition than equally ill trained civilians. Both of which can easily get shot under the exact same circumstances and conditions. That's idiotic. Same with all of this, "pro active with a firearm" nonsense you keep pushing. Even if that is true, it has been well documented that most all cops go their entire careers without ever firing a shot from their service weapons. Regardless if they have to, "rush in" or not. So this whole, "pro active" angle you are pushing doesn't mean they are involved in any more shootings than the average civilian who is carrying.... Which in most all cases amounts to a grand total of none.

Here in Arizona a citizen can carry open or concealed without a permit or any training what so ever. Even before they did away with permit requirements, (you can still apply for, and get them), the classroom and actual, "firearms training" portion of it was a joke. Something like 5 rounds on a silhouette target at 7 yards with no, or else ridiculously generous time restrictions. Most other states that require a citizen to carry have to go through much the same lackluster "training".

Add this all up and it's silly to make excuses for carrying a weapon that has a tremendously reduced capacity, and is both slow and clumsy to reload. All of this falls under using the best tool available for the job. Regardless of the ability of the person who is using it. And what you're suggesting is on parallel with trying to change your spark plugs with a pair of pliers.

 

[Al]

Don't want to get the thread shut down. Back to the small hands discussion.

 

[andrewg]

I've noticed fairly large price differences in the various gun shops and retailers for the firearm I'm looking at. As much as $100.

Cabelas and Bass Pro are most expensive. My local shops, much less.

Trying to find a quality outside belt holster may be a challenge. Not sure where to start on that one.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: andrewg

Trying to find a quality outside belt holster may be a challenge. Not sure where to start on that one.

Yea those stores are m any times (mostly) over priced.

Check out both amazon and ebay. Good quality leather holster = $35. You would want one likely that rides as high as possible. Although I have one of those. I noramally pocket carry with a DeSantis size V5

 

[bigj_16]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
I've noticed fairly large price differences in the various gun shops and retailers for the firearm I'm looking at. As much as $100.

Cabelas and Bass Pro are most expensive. My local shops, much less.

Trying to find a quality outside belt holster may be a challenge. Not sure where to start on that one.



https://epsaddlery.com/

 

[bigj_16]

https://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Defa...p;zipcode=80104

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: bigj_16

https://epsaddlery.com/

Not saying their stuff is not any good. But their prices were very hich and selection pretty low.
Like I said..good leather carry, strong side, high carry..$35 on ebay. Bought this for my Shield. When I ditched it, it nicely fits my 42 and 43