Shell engine teardown of experimental low-viscosit

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456
Location
Aberdeen SD
Newer diesel (mainly heavy duty) need to work on reliability way before fuel economy. We work on an ISX atleast once a week with EGR/DEF/DPF issues usually not over 500k miles. Our current over the road truck is a 3406E with 1.4 million on it pulling a heavy haul. The truck has 430hp and runs close to 65,000lb empty...loaded it is close to 150,000lb and only thing major that I have had to replace is the rear ends. The new emmisions are killing them. I have a 2011 Pete wth a 550 ISX in my shop now at 380k with a DEF problem. Truck is in limp and had to be towed due to the DEF pump and plugged exhaust filter($2500) Never saw that in pre-emissions engines. The current repair bill on that truck? $3500... and we still have not fixed the EGR problem that caused the problem. The filter alone is $2200 pre markup.
 
Messages
456
Location
Aberdeen SD
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
And for those who think trucking companies will absorb thses costs without raising rates...thanks bureaucrats.
Honestly the average dollar per mile rate has not changed much in 5 years or so. Its a cutthroat business but unlike other things their are still places that make money in the OTR trucking industry. 500k is about all a modern engine does. Go back to 2000 and the average engine was a million mile machine.
 
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9,783
Location
Saskatoon canada
Thanks for posting that link. So the t-5 10w-30 protected the engine just as well as the industry standard 15w-40. Not that I'm going to but since I'm using conventional rotella 15w-40 in my Harley right now I wonder if this particular 10w-30 would work to replace it. I thought I was pushing boundaries with using an hdeo already,10w-30 would be really pushing it. Cool video. Thanks for posting.
 
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43,676
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'Stralia
Given that 10W30 is obsolete, how can it be "new and improved" ? Personally, I think it's great...still has to have HTHS comparable to A3/B4
 

dnewton3

Staff member
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8,599
Location
Indianapolis, IN
Yet more evidence that thin does not = disaster. Those engines were not designed (optimized) for thinner lubes, and yet the "new" PC-targeted lubes did just as well in cleanliness and wear protection. It is concievable that as newer engines are designed with the lube in mind, it could become even better. The lube has no effect (as an input) to the DPF/DEF issues. Indirectly, regens may affect the lube with dilution, but the lube does not affect that DPF/DEF. Why even bring that up?
 
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Messages
2,995
Location
Cedarbrae, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Brent_G
Newer diesel (mainly heavy duty) need to work on reliability way before fuel economy. We work on an ISX atleast once a week with EGR/DEF/DPF issues usually not over 500k miles. Our current over the road truck is a 3406E with 1.4 million on it pulling a heavy haul. The truck has 430hp and runs close to 65,000lb empty...loaded it is close to 150,000lb and only thing major that I have had to replace is the rear ends. The new emmisions are killing them. I have a 2011 Pete wth a 550 ISX in my shop now at 380k with a DEF problem. Truck is in limp and had to be towed due to the DEF pump and plugged exhaust filter($2500) Never saw that in pre-emissions engines. The current repair bill on that truck? $3500... and we still have not fixed the EGR problem that caused the problem. The filter alone is $2200 pre markup.
This is precisely why the boss is not buying any new trucks in the near future. The newest truck in the fleet is a 2007 that does not have all the emissions junk on it. Hardly ever any engine problems, and we have both Cat C15 and Cummins ISX engines.
 
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3,561
Location
Central Iowa
And that is why I bought a 2013 Freightliner... without an engine or transmission! I then dropped in a factory rebuilt pre-egr Series 60 and the factory rebuilt Eaton 18 speed. One can buy a brand new truck the very same way. Freightliner is making a killing on building trucks without engines, shipping them to the dealer, and then the customer engine is dropped in. Best of both worlds! Pre-emission engines and brand new trucks! And what a savings on the wallet in both purchase and maintenance. I saved 40K doing this compared to buying a similar emission laden new truck. Brent, you are correct to some degree on rates, but check out the 2014 trend line in freight indexes. Rates are up across the board. And projected to grow considerably this next year. My average rates are up year over year. Best year ever. And 10w30 for heavy diesels ia nothing new. I know of several fleets who are on 10w30 exclusively in their newer engines. I know of two recently who went completely over to the Schaeffer 10w30. One of them has a crop of Cummins ISX's and Paccar engines in their trucks. Can't speak to Cat or Cummins, but Detroit has approved 10w30, for years, for all their heavy diesels from the 12.7 pre-egr Series 60 right on up to the DD15. Has been in the Detroit lube manual for a long, long time. Just no one ever seems to read those things. They have the mindset that 15w40 is what we all have used and that is what we still use. It is almost like pulling teeth to get them to consider a 5w40, let alone a 10w30. I have no doubt that the PC-11 10w30 will do just fine. The current CJ-4 10w30 does just fine.
 

CT8

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15,392
Location
Idaho
I remember using straight 30 in Cummins and 40 in 2 cycle Detroits. Life was simple and goods were shipped.
 
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22
Location
California
I can see a low viscosity engine oil becoming a no viscosity engine oil with a good dose of fuel dilution from DPF regeneration.
 
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Messages
3,561
Location
Central Iowa
Kinda hard to imagine that. The fuel for the DPF, at least on heavy diesels, it at the DPF itself downstream. Some early versions dosed at the engine, but dilution was somewhat of an issue, but the inefficiency of the fuel / burn ratio was bigger.. Crawl under a current production semi truck and you can see the fuel line to the DPF.
 
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43,676
Location
'Stralia
TT, how do they stop the fuel in the lines coking between regens ? if there's a fuel line waiting full then it's coke city
 
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9,783
Location
Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Given that 10W30 is obsolete, how can it be "new and improved" ? Personally, I think it's great...still has to have HTHS comparable to A3/B4
Hehehe. Awesome. I'm thinking caterham wasn't considering diesels when he posted that. I'm sure he'd approve though. This goes along with his thin oil mantra. Not that a single torn down engine can be considered absolute proof that 10w-30 isn't too thin for big diesels. If I made my living hauling I'm not sure that I'd waiver from the accepted norms when it comes to lubricants. 15w-40 has been the benchmark for decades. It would take significant evidence for me to switch. Especially considering if there was a failure I'd need to mortgage my house to fix it. Sure I'll give a 20 grade a shot in my various engines that call for something thicker,but those vehicles aren't how I'm feeding and clothing my kids. Thinner lubes will catch on in every industry as a measure to reduce fuel consumption however not at the cost of shorter engine life,not when men depend on those engines for income. Wasn't there an oem,maybe ford,that at one point was specifying the 10w-30 but ended up with problems then they returned to the 40 grade. I'm not sure who it was but I do recall reading about it,somewhere.
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
And that is why I bought a 2013 Freightliner... without an engine or transmission! I then dropped in a factory rebuilt pre-egr Series 60 and the factory rebuilt Eaton 18 speed. One can buy a brand new truck the very same way. Freightliner is making a killing on building trucks without engines, shipping them to the dealer, and then the customer engine is dropped in. Best of both worlds! Pre-emission engines and brand new trucks! And what a savings on the wallet in both purchase and maintenance. I saved 40K doing this compared to buying a similar emission laden new truck. Brent, you are correct to some degree on rates, but check out the 2014 trend line in freight indexes. Rates are up across the board. And projected to grow considerably this next year. My average rates are up year over year. Best year ever. And 10w30 for heavy diesels ia nothing new. I know of several fleets who are on 10w30 exclusively in their newer engines. I know of two recently who went completely over to the Schaeffer 10w30. One of them has a crop of Cummins ISX's and Paccar engines in their trucks. Can't speak to Cat or Cummins, but Detroit has approved 10w30, for years, for all their heavy diesels from the 12.7 pre-egr Series 60 right on up to the DD15. Has been in the Detroit lube manual for a long, long time. Just no one ever seems to read those things. They have the mindset that 15w40 is what we all have used and that is what we still use. It is almost like pulling teeth to get them to consider a 5w40, let alone a 10w30. I have no doubt that the PC-11 10w30 will do just fine. The current CJ-4 10w30 does just fine.
So TT. Is that 40 grand just in the purchase of the truck,finished,or is that including any potential maintenance as well. 40000 bucks is real money. Some folks live on less than that yearly. So once you start doing the math that 40k multiplies fast once sone considers the added maintenance the new trucks require,and the fact that they require a rebuild at 2/3rds the miles also has to be factored in. That adds up to some serious money. What about fuel consumption? Is your truck easier or harder on fuel vs a new one. And what's the difference? If the newer ones are better on fuel at what point does the added initial cost become a wash,or does it? And if the new ones consume more fuel vs the non pollution controlled variant then that extra initial up front cost is never recovered and the monetary difference just keeps getting wider and wider. TT When you first joined and I read your posts about getting around pollution controls and whatnot I thought you were a special kind of jerk and extremely narrow sighted,however I'm starting to see you in a different light and I think if I was in your position I would do as you have. So I'd like to apologize for my many jerk type posts in regards to this topic,I guess I just had to see things from your point of view.
 
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43,676
Location
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Given that 10W30 is obsolete, how can it be "new and improved" ? Personally, I think it's great...still has to have HTHS comparable to A3/B4
Hehehe. Awesome. I'm thinking caterham wasn't considering diesels when he posted that. I'm sure he'd approve though. This goes along with his thin oil mantra. Not that a single torn down engine can be considered absolute proof that 10w-30 isn't too thin for big diesels. If I made my living hauling I'm not sure that I'd waiver from the accepted norms when it comes to lubricants. 15w-40 has been the benchmark for decades.
Clevy, CATERHAM fully understands J300 and it's history, so this is no surprise...except he keeps calling RL 20s "really 30s", and the like. SAE 30 was always just straight 30, it had an HTHS in the 3.5 range, and always served the industry well...15W40 was unusual and new, and they needed the 40 part to counteract the temporary and permanent shear thinning that occurred by chasing the 15W, and VI part of the equation. Look at the early J300 when they finally included HTHS, and there was a serious difference between the PCMO 0W, 5%, and 10W 40s, which had minimum HTHS same as the xW30s...while the HDMO 15W, 20W, and 25W40s had an HTHS in keeping, and slightly higher than a standard SAE30. This new 15W30 is, in my mind, and I'll posit same, a demonstration that SAE30 was the correct lubricant for the OTR diesels of the day, and that modern VIIS, PPDs, and whatever can now give you the operational protection that an SAE30 did back in the bad old days, without requiring artificially high KV100s to counteract the temprary and permanent shear that the 15W40s had to combat. It's silly, and TGMO does it to have an overly high KV100 for a given HTHS, just to give a great VI. IMO, 15W30, in a modern fay formulation is going to be as solid as SAE30 was "back in the day"
 
Messages
1,800
Location
Rijeka, EU
Here, 5w30 oils are used for years now. Of course with HTHS greater than 3.5. No issues whatsoever except better economy. Up to 100k km OCI, some latest even to 150k km. 13-16 litre diesel putting out 450-600 hp isn't really a stressed engine.
 
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10,912
Location
Cincinnati, OH, USA
Originally Posted By: Koz1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hWlRjvVNEIw#t=0 Shell engineer Howard Hill shares with SAE Magazines the results of a field-test engine teardown using an experimental Rotella heavy-duty engine oil that can improve fuel economy and points to a new diesel engine oil category, PC-11, expected in 2016. Could not find with search. If its a repeat just delete.
Hmmm-experimental? Could they have been using the exact same T5 10W30 available today? Sounds the same!
 
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3,561
Location
Central Iowa
I can't speak to how they are dealing with fuel lines and injectors at the DPF, but they must have figured out something. It is standard of all heavy diesels now that fuel injector is used at the DPF. I wasn't about to pay more to play guinea pig to how they figured out all the EPA nonsense. The cost for my completed 2013 truck, running pre-egr rebuilt Detroit and a rebuilt 18 speed, all else brand new. Was $112K, ready to go to work. The way I spec'd things on this one, I could not get Fretightliner, International, or any other OEM to give me similar specs on a totally new production truck, ready to work, for less than $150K. Micro spec'd thing right down to hub seals. And arctic insulation package and premium noise abatement package, Webasto bunk heater, signature interior, built in fridge, and every gauge available in a wood grain dash. Airline style wrap around sleeper cabinets along with standard shelf cabinets and full length clothes closet. All in a 70" midroof sleeper. Meritor dual drive axles with full lockers in each axle. Alcoa durabrite wheels all the way around riding on Michelin rubber. 10 way adjustable air ride, high back seats. Xantrex inverter charger that acts as inverter on batteries, then as a battery charger when connected to AC shore power.
 
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3,561
Location
Central Iowa
Forgot, it gets around 25% better mpg than the commercial semi truck industry average of around 6 mpg. About on par with what the newer, more fuel efficient engines are getting nowadays. I got 220K miles out of the steer rubber. They still had 8-10/32nd, but I got $150 each for the casings and discount on new rubber. Couldn't pas up the deal. The drive rubber is still original that came on the truck. 335K miles on them. Measured at 320K and still had 14-16/32nd tread. Probably figure they will get replaced next fall at around 450K. Truck is a definate keeper. Engine uses about 1/2 gallon oil (out of 9.5 gallon sump capacity) in 25K miles / 500 hrs. Not bad, as that is 66% over the OEM recommended drain internal of 15K miles / 300 hrs. Samples look very good.
 
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