Shearing question
- Thread starter Dragon44
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Neither, but closer to a 0w30 than a 5w30
A better question is how often we actually see an oil shearing out of grade in an automobile application. Blackstone cannot tell, and those are the vast majority of the analysis posted here. Back when SonofJoe was still posting he said that the VII in oil was far more shear stable than people here imagine it to be. Plus it would be highly application dependent if it does happen.
Shear can be quite a buzz word and topic here on Bitog but the evidence is scant. Viscosity deviation due to fuel dilution or poor analyitcs is much more likely.
Shear can be quite a buzz word and topic here on Bitog but the evidence is scant. Viscosity deviation due to fuel dilution or poor analyitcs is much more likely.
Originally Posted by kschachn
A better question is how often we actually see an oil shearing out of grade in an automobile application. Blackstone cannot tell, and those are the vast majority of the analysis posted here. Back when SonofJoe was still posting he said that the VII in oil was far more shear stable than people here imagine it to be. Plus it would be highly application dependent if it does happen.
Shear can be quite a buzz word and topic here on Bitog but the evidence is scant. Viscosity deviation due to fuel dilution or poor analyitcs is much more likely.
I've experienced shearing with GF5 VII oils, they all dropped to a 30 grade while the last fill was with an HDEO and it sheared a lot less, it actually stayed in grade. Some TGDI are pretty harsh on oils.
Back to OP's question, from my understanding it's usually the VII that shears, so the low temp viscosity should stay the same (0w), It would be more of a 0w-30.
A better question is how often we actually see an oil shearing out of grade in an automobile application. Blackstone cannot tell, and those are the vast majority of the analysis posted here. Back when SonofJoe was still posting he said that the VII in oil was far more shear stable than people here imagine it to be. Plus it would be highly application dependent if it does happen.
Shear can be quite a buzz word and topic here on Bitog but the evidence is scant. Viscosity deviation due to fuel dilution or poor analyitcs is much more likely.
I've experienced shearing with GF5 VII oils, they all dropped to a 30 grade while the last fill was with an HDEO and it sheared a lot less, it actually stayed in grade. Some TGDI are pretty harsh on oils.
Back to OP's question, from my understanding it's usually the VII that shears, so the low temp viscosity should stay the same (0w), It would be more of a 0w-30.
Originally Posted by kschachn
A better question is how often we actually see an oil shearing out of grade in an automobile application. Blackstone cannot tell, and those are the vast majority of the analysis posted here. Back when SonofJoe was still posting he said that the VII in oil was far more shear stable than people here imagine it to be. Plus it would be highly application dependent if it does happen.
Shear can be quite a buzz word and topic here on Bitog but the evidence is scant. Viscosity deviation due to fuel dilution or poor analyitcs is much more likely.
I guess they are not hearing you. There is, actually, a new test (don't remember the reference number) that test's for "stay in grade" after so many hours of running (being abused).
A better question is how often we actually see an oil shearing out of grade in an automobile application. Blackstone cannot tell, and those are the vast majority of the analysis posted here. Back when SonofJoe was still posting he said that the VII in oil was far more shear stable than people here imagine it to be. Plus it would be highly application dependent if it does happen.
Shear can be quite a buzz word and topic here on Bitog but the evidence is scant. Viscosity deviation due to fuel dilution or poor analyitcs is much more likely.
I guess they are not hearing you. There is, actually, a new test (don't remember the reference number) that test's for "stay in grade" after so many hours of running (being abused).
It can be very engine specific at times.
Nissan V6's and Ford PowerStrokes (with the "high-pressure oil actuated" fuel injectors) are toughest on oil.
Simple engines, like the 4.6 Liter Ford SOHC cam V8 - don't shear the oil at all....
Nissan V6's and Ford PowerStrokes (with the "high-pressure oil actuated" fuel injectors) are toughest on oil.
Simple engines, like the 4.6 Liter Ford SOHC cam V8 - don't shear the oil at all....
Originally Posted by Dragon44
When an oil shears for example say a 0w 40 oil shears will it now be a 5w 30 or a 0w 30 oil?
Funny thing about shearing. An oil can shear and then return to grade. Especially if the viscosity is at the low end of the spectrum for the specific grade. An example is M1 0w40. The oil was a light 40w and would shear to 30w but rebound back to a 40w at the end of the intended OCI. Some users would complain about M1 falling out of grade in 5k miles but if you waited until 10k miles the oil would test out at a 40w.
When an oil shears for example say a 0w 40 oil shears will it now be a 5w 30 or a 0w 30 oil?
Funny thing about shearing. An oil can shear and then return to grade. Especially if the viscosity is at the low end of the spectrum for the specific grade. An example is M1 0w40. The oil was a light 40w and would shear to 30w but rebound back to a 40w at the end of the intended OCI. Some users would complain about M1 falling out of grade in 5k miles but if you waited until 10k miles the oil would test out at a 40w.
Originally Posted by Dragon44
When an oil shears for example say a 0w 40 oil shears will it now be a 5w 30 or a 0w 30 oil?
Depends on the degree of shearing. If the mechanical and heat stresses within the engine totally annihilate the oils viscosity modifiers beyond repair, the drop in grade can be more profound. The oils viscosity would begin to return to the thickness of the base oil, in your case probably an SAE10 or 20 (or I suppose it could technically even be an SAE0 w/gobs of VII's) . Virgin oil out of the bottle has been subjected to viscosity testing at 100 and 150c, so for a multi vis to be labeled a XwXX it has to stay in grade (range) after completing those tests. So your oil can (and will) shear but it doesn't necessarily mean it's fallen out of grade. You'd have to have it tested to know for certain. And as kschachn pointed, while the 150c ht/hs test is designed to simulate conditions inside your engine not all engines are created equal nor do they treat oil equally. You may have more or less severe mechanical/heat stresses within your engine causing an oil in your engine to experience more or less shear. But the ht/hs is a good test which gives formulators some visibility into the virgin end products ability to resist shear, where there would otherwise be none. (it at least gives us something to go off of)
When an oil shears for example say a 0w 40 oil shears will it now be a 5w 30 or a 0w 30 oil?
Depends on the degree of shearing. If the mechanical and heat stresses within the engine totally annihilate the oils viscosity modifiers beyond repair, the drop in grade can be more profound. The oils viscosity would begin to return to the thickness of the base oil, in your case probably an SAE10 or 20 (or I suppose it could technically even be an SAE0 w/gobs of VII's) . Virgin oil out of the bottle has been subjected to viscosity testing at 100 and 150c, so for a multi vis to be labeled a XwXX it has to stay in grade (range) after completing those tests. So your oil can (and will) shear but it doesn't necessarily mean it's fallen out of grade. You'd have to have it tested to know for certain. And as kschachn pointed, while the 150c ht/hs test is designed to simulate conditions inside your engine not all engines are created equal nor do they treat oil equally. You may have more or less severe mechanical/heat stresses within your engine causing an oil in your engine to experience more or less shear. But the ht/hs is a good test which gives formulators some visibility into the virgin end products ability to resist shear, where there would otherwise be none. (it at least gives us something to go off of)
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Dragon44
When an oil shears for example say a 0w 40 oil shears will it now be a 5w 30 or a 0w 30 oil?
Funny thing about shearing. An oil can shear and then return to grade. Especially if the viscosity is at the low end of the spectrum for the specific grade. An example is M1 0w40. The oil was a light 40w and would shear to 30w but rebound back to a 40w at the end of the intended OCI. Some users would complain about M1 falling out of grade in 5k miles but if you waited until 10k miles the oil would test out at a 40w.
Shear thickening/thinning and evaporative loss is what causes a borderline grade oil to change grade over time. My engine specs either 5/20, 5/30 or 10/30. I run a 5/30, so even if the oil shears (as all oils do on some level), I'm still good if there's a drop in grade. Plus I rarely ever tow anything or go over 5k oci on syn/syn blend oils, so "shearing" out of grade is just not something that keeps me awake at night. But that's just me......
Originally Posted by Dragon44
When an oil shears for example say a 0w 40 oil shears will it now be a 5w 30 or a 0w 30 oil?
Funny thing about shearing. An oil can shear and then return to grade. Especially if the viscosity is at the low end of the spectrum for the specific grade. An example is M1 0w40. The oil was a light 40w and would shear to 30w but rebound back to a 40w at the end of the intended OCI. Some users would complain about M1 falling out of grade in 5k miles but if you waited until 10k miles the oil would test out at a 40w.
Shear thickening/thinning and evaporative loss is what causes a borderline grade oil to change grade over time. My engine specs either 5/20, 5/30 or 10/30. I run a 5/30, so even if the oil shears (as all oils do on some level), I'm still good if there's a drop in grade. Plus I rarely ever tow anything or go over 5k oci on syn/syn blend oils, so "shearing" out of grade is just not something that keeps me awake at night. But that's just me......
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Dragon44
When an oil shears for example say a 0w 40 oil shears will it now be a 5w 30 or a 0w 30 oil?
Funny thing about shearing. An oil can shear and then return to grade. Especially if the viscosity is at the low end of the spectrum for the specific grade. An example is M1 0w40. The oil was a light 40w and would shear to 30w but rebound back to a 40w at the end of the intended OCI. Some users would complain about M1 falling out of grade in 5k miles but if you waited until 10k miles the oil would test out at a 40w.
Shear thickening/thinning and evaporative loss is what causes a borderline grade oil to change grade over time. My engine specs either 5/20, 5/30 or 10/30. I run a 5/30, so even if the oil shears (as all oils do on some level), I'm still good if there's a drop in grade. Plus I rarely ever tow anything or go over 5k oci on syn/syn blend oils, so "shearing" out of grade is just not something that keeps me awake at night. But that's just me......
+1 ... Now with a GDI engine driving in a major city suburb and 30+ minutes one way to work and back each day - my synthetic D1/G2 oil is getting pretty nasty by 4K miles OCI . Whether it's a 5W20 or 5W30 D1/G2 synthetic oil , I'm not worried about shearing with < 5K mile OCI's .
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Dragon44
When an oil shears for example say a 0w 40 oil shears will it now be a 5w 30 or a 0w 30 oil?
Funny thing about shearing. An oil can shear and then return to grade. Especially if the viscosity is at the low end of the spectrum for the specific grade. An example is M1 0w40. The oil was a light 40w and would shear to 30w but rebound back to a 40w at the end of the intended OCI. Some users would complain about M1 falling out of grade in 5k miles but if you waited until 10k miles the oil would test out at a 40w.
Shear thickening/thinning and evaporative loss is what causes a borderline grade oil to change grade over time. My engine specs either 5/20, 5/30 or 10/30. I run a 5/30, so even if the oil shears (as all oils do on some level), I'm still good if there's a drop in grade. Plus I rarely ever tow anything or go over 5k oci on syn/syn blend oils, so "shearing" out of grade is just not something that keeps me awake at night. But that's just me......
+1 ... Now with a GDI engine driving in a major city suburb and 30+ minutes one way to work and back each day - my synthetic D1/G2 oil is getting pretty nasty by 4K miles OCI . Whether it's a 5W20 or 5W30 D1/G2 synthetic oil , I'm not worried about shearing with < 5K mile OCI's .
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Dragon44
When an oil shears for example say a 0w 40 oil shears will it now be a 5w 30 or a 0w 30 oil?
Funny thing about shearing. An oil can shear and then return to grade. Especially if the viscosity is at the low end of the spectrum for the specific grade. An example is M1 0w40. The oil was a light 40w and would shear to 30w but rebound back to a 40w at the end of the intended OCI. Some users would complain about M1 falling out of grade in 5k miles but if you waited until 10k miles the oil would test out at a 40w.
Shear thickening/thinning and evaporative loss is what causes a borderline grade oil to change grade over time. My engine specs either 5/20, 5/30 or 10/30. I run a 5/30, so even if the oil shears (as all oils do on some level), I'm still good if there's a drop in grade. Plus I rarely ever tow anything or go over 5k oci on syn/syn blend oils, so "shearing" out of grade is just not something that keeps me awake at night. But that's just me......
+1 ... Now with a GDI engine driving in a major city suburb and 30+ minutes one way to work and back each day - my synthetic D1/G2 oil is getting pretty nasty by 4K miles OCI . Whether it's a 5W20 or 5W30 D1/G2 synthetic oil , I'm not worried about shearing with < 5K mile OCI's .
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Dragon44
When an oil shears for example say a 0w 40 oil shears will it now be a 5w 30 or a 0w 30 oil?
Funny thing about shearing. An oil can shear and then return to grade. Especially if the viscosity is at the low end of the spectrum for the specific grade. An example is M1 0w40. The oil was a light 40w and would shear to 30w but rebound back to a 40w at the end of the intended OCI. Some users would complain about M1 falling out of grade in 5k miles but if you waited until 10k miles the oil would test out at a 40w.
Shear thickening/thinning and evaporative loss is what causes a borderline grade oil to change grade over time. My engine specs either 5/20, 5/30 or 10/30. I run a 5/30, so even if the oil shears (as all oils do on some level), I'm still good if there's a drop in grade. Plus I rarely ever tow anything or go over 5k oci on syn/syn blend oils, so "shearing" out of grade is just not something that keeps me awake at night. But that's just me......
+1 ... Now with a GDI engine driving in a major city suburb and 30+ minutes one way to work and back each day - my synthetic D1/G2 oil is getting pretty nasty by 4K miles OCI . Whether it's a 5W20 or 5W30 D1/G2 synthetic oil , I'm not worried about shearing with < 5K mile OCI's .
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
Originally Posted by jbutch
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
Which one is it? That's kind of the point of this thread.
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
Which one is it? That's kind of the point of this thread.
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by jbutch
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
Which one is it? That's kind of the point of this thread.
Here's the latest UOA, it also includes past UOA.
Personally, I think it's more of a shear than fuel dilution as the Rotella that was used in the last OCI didn't drop as much in viscosity and the driving style was the same as all the other oils used before.
In reality, both fuel dilution and shear will occur in a TGDI imo. but after every GF5 OCIs, it dropped quite a lot in viscosity compared to the HDEO that was used last.
Currently have M1 ESP in the sump and I'm sure it will not shear as much. There is a 140 pages thread with UOAs of the same engine that I have on NASIOC and the trend is the same as I'm seing, GF5-RC will shear while NON-RC will not as much and stay in grade.
If fuel dilution was the only factor in dropping the viscosity, wouldn't the viscosity drop as much for both RC and non-RC?
Originally Posted by jbutch
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
Which one is it? That's kind of the point of this thread.
Here's the latest UOA, it also includes past UOA.
Personally, I think it's more of a shear than fuel dilution as the Rotella that was used in the last OCI didn't drop as much in viscosity and the driving style was the same as all the other oils used before.
In reality, both fuel dilution and shear will occur in a TGDI imo. but after every GF5 OCIs, it dropped quite a lot in viscosity compared to the HDEO that was used last.
Currently have M1 ESP in the sump and I'm sure it will not shear as much. There is a 140 pages thread with UOAs of the same engine that I have on NASIOC and the trend is the same as I'm seing, GF5-RC will shear while NON-RC will not as much and stay in grade.
If fuel dilution was the only factor in dropping the viscosity, wouldn't the viscosity drop as much for both RC and non-RC?
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Originally Posted by jbutch
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
What am I missing...I don't see a 2400 mile oci in your past UOA's.
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
What am I missing...I don't see a 2400 mile oci in your past UOA's.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by jbutch
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
What am I missing...I don't see a 2400 mile oci in your past UOA's.
I'm in Canada, thence all distances in the UOAs are in kilometers.
The UOA with 3855 kms is approximately 2400 miles, I converted since most on bitog uses miles.
Originally Posted by jbutch
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
What am I missing...I don't see a 2400 mile oci in your past UOA's.
I'm in Canada, thence all distances in the UOAs are in kilometers.
The UOA with 3855 kms is approximately 2400 miles, I converted since most on bitog uses miles.
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Originally Posted by jbutch
I'm in Canada, thence all distances in the UOAs are in kilometers.
The UOA with 3855 kms is approximately 2400 miles, I converted since most on bitog uses miles.
Yeah I saw you stated it in miles so it threw me. Got it..
I'm in Canada, thence all distances in the UOAs are in kilometers.
The UOA with 3855 kms is approximately 2400 miles, I converted since most on bitog uses miles.
Yeah I saw you stated it in miles so it threw me. Got it..
Originally Posted by jbutch
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
Looking at the UOA in question...
A) why did you do only 3.8k km on this one particular oci?
B) what was going on with the copper? You had copper levels above avgs for some time then all of a sudden it drops precipitously following the 3 8k km oci. Did you have a radiator issue or wear issue (bearings?) going on that caused you to service the engine and in doing so necessitated dumping the oil early?
I can't put my finger on it but something's not lining up here...
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
Looking at the UOA in question...
A) why did you do only 3.8k km on this one particular oci?
B) what was going on with the copper? You had copper levels above avgs for some time then all of a sudden it drops precipitously following the 3 8k km oci. Did you have a radiator issue or wear issue (bearings?) going on that caused you to service the engine and in doing so necessitated dumping the oil early?
I can't put my finger on it but something's not lining up here...
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by jbutch
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
Looking at the UOA in question...
A) why did you do only 3.8k km on this one particular oci?
B) what was going on with the copper? You had copper levels above avgs for some time then all of a sudden it drops precipitously following the 3 8k km oci. Did you have a radiator issue or wear issue (bearings?) going on that caused you to service the engine and in doing so necessitated dumping the oil early?
I can't put my finger on it but something's not lining up here...
A and B are from the same issue.
After switching to Pennzoil Platinum, my copper level really spiked, I ran two OCI with PP (108 ppm and 61 ppm copper). I than switched to QSUD to see if it would drop the copper level (it did) and I dumped early to see if there was any progress, thence the 3.8k kms OCI.
Lots of posts/replies says that it could be copper leeching from the oil cooler, but I am not comfortable having that much copper.
I am now more comfortable to put more kms in my OCI since I found an oil that stays in grade and had great results.
Originally Posted by jbutch
My shortest OCI has been 2400 miles and QSUD had already sheared/diluted from being a very thick 30 grade to a 20 grade (11.6 cst @ 100c to 8.62 cst @ 100c).
Looking at the UOA in question...
A) why did you do only 3.8k km on this one particular oci?
B) what was going on with the copper? You had copper levels above avgs for some time then all of a sudden it drops precipitously following the 3 8k km oci. Did you have a radiator issue or wear issue (bearings?) going on that caused you to service the engine and in doing so necessitated dumping the oil early?
I can't put my finger on it but something's not lining up here...
A and B are from the same issue.
After switching to Pennzoil Platinum, my copper level really spiked, I ran two OCI with PP (108 ppm and 61 ppm copper). I than switched to QSUD to see if it would drop the copper level (it did) and I dumped early to see if there was any progress, thence the 3.8k kms OCI.
Lots of posts/replies says that it could be copper leeching from the oil cooler, but I am not comfortable having that much copper.
I am now more comfortable to put more kms in my OCI since I found an oil that stays in grade and had great results.
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Originally Posted by jbutch
After switching to Pennzoil Platinum, my copper level really spiked, I ran two OCI with PP (108 ppm and 61 ppm copper). I than switched to QSUD to see if it would drop the copper level (it did) and I dumped early to see if there was any progress, thence the 3.8k kms OCI.
Lots of posts/replies says that it could be copper leeching from the oil cooler, but I am not comfortable having that much copper.
I am now more comfortable to put more kms in my OCI since I found an oil that stays in grade and had great results.
I think you made the right call.
As for the shearing out of grade at just 3.8k km's, that's an interesting one. It looks to me like you've either had a sampling issue or slight fuel problem in the past, so maybe that's something to consider?? 🤔 If I were you I'd (obviously) keep running that higher (11.0)100c oil, as your wear metals look better at that grade.
After switching to Pennzoil Platinum, my copper level really spiked, I ran two OCI with PP (108 ppm and 61 ppm copper). I than switched to QSUD to see if it would drop the copper level (it did) and I dumped early to see if there was any progress, thence the 3.8k kms OCI.
Lots of posts/replies says that it could be copper leeching from the oil cooler, but I am not comfortable having that much copper.
I am now more comfortable to put more kms in my OCI since I found an oil that stays in grade and had great results.
I think you made the right call.
As for the shearing out of grade at just 3.8k km's, that's an interesting one. It looks to me like you've either had a sampling issue or slight fuel problem in the past, so maybe that's something to consider?? 🤔 If I were you I'd (obviously) keep running that higher (11.0)100c oil, as your wear metals look better at that grade.
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