Servicing a Chrysler A604 4 speed automatic tranny - questions

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PW7

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Hello everyone, I hope you can help me. My parents own a 1993 Chrysler Fifth Avenue with the 3.3L V6 and A604 4 speed automatic. For the last few years, the tranmission has started to act up in cold weather. When you start the car in the morning, the transmission won't engage into any gear until the car is warmed up for about 5-10 minutes. When you start driving, the transmission shifts sluggishly until the car is fully warmed up. Other than that, the transmission works fine.

The transmission ultimately needs a rebuild (new seals), but my parents are thinking about getting a transmission service done to see if that would help. The last time the transmission had its fluid and filter changed was back in 1999.

1. To my knowledge, the correct transmission fluid to use is ATF+4. Dexron should NEVER be used in a A604 tranny, is that correct?

2. Will a synthetic ATF work better than ATF+4? One person I talked to owned a 1994 Lebaron with similar transmission problems - he used Amzoil synthetic ATF, and the delayed engagement problems went away.

3. Does anyone makes a good transmission additive that will condition and soften the seals in the transmission? I have tried Lucas Transmission Fix, but it didn't seem to help at all.

4. What is the best (and safest) way to remove the old transmission fluid? Is a flush recommended? I know many tranny shops have a machine which exchanges the transmission fluid and flushes the tranny.
 
I would use the Amsoil ATF (good stuff and their website recommends it for your car).

quote:
Does anyone makes a good transmission additive that will condition and soften the seals in the transmission?
Click to expand...
I would take a look at Auto RX over in the additives area. It is supposed to clean and condition seals for both engine and tranny.
 
"1. To my knowledge, the correct transmission fluid to use is ATF+4. Dexron should NEVER be used in a A604 tranny, is that correct?

2. Will a synthetic ATF work better than ATF+4? One person I talked to owned a 1994 Lebaron with similar transmission problems - he used Amzoil synthetic ATF, and the delayed engagement problems went away.

3. Does anyone makes a good transmission additive that will condition and soften the seals in the transmission? I have tried Lucas Transmission Fix, but it didn't seem to help at all.

4. What is the best (and safest) way to remove the old transmission fluid? Is a flush recommended? I know many tranny shops have a machine which exchanges the transmission fluid and flushes the tranny."



ATF+4 is synthetic and will work. Amsoil is also a good product.Don't bother with additives %99 are snake oil.As for a flush use something gentle like a Auto-Rx or MMO. I've heard the Auto Rx actually conditions the seals. Most shop type flushes are harsh and will tear up the seals.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wheeler:
Hello everyone, I hope you can help me. My parents own a 1993 Chrysler Fifth Avenue with the 3.3L V6 and A604 4 speed automatic. For the last few years, the tranmission has started to act up in cold weather. When you start the car in the morning, the transmission won't engage into any gear until the car is warmed up for about 5-10 minutes. When you start driving, the transmission shifts sluggishly until the car is fully warmed up. Other than that, the transmission works fine.

The transmission ultimately needs a rebuild (new seals), but my parents are thinking about getting a transmission service done to see if that would help. The last time the transmission had its fluid and filter changed was back in 1999.

1. To my knowledge, the correct transmission fluid to use is ATF+4. Dexron should NEVER be used in a A604 tranny, is that correct?

2. Will a synthetic ATF work better than ATF+4? One person I talked to owned a 1994 Lebaron with similar transmission problems - he used Amzoil synthetic ATF, and the delayed engagement problems went away.

3. Does anyone makes a good transmission additive that will condition and soften the seals in the transmission? I have tried Lucas Transmission Fix, but it didn't seem to help at all.

4. What is the best (and safest) way to remove the old transmission fluid? Is a flush recommended? I know many tranny shops have a machine which exchanges the transmission fluid and flushes the tranny.
Click to expand...
1. Only ATF 3 or 4 shoulld be used. NEVER use Dexron or Mercon in a dodge chrysler tranny. Dexron is a much too "grabby" fluid and with cause failure in short order.

2. ATF+4 is only different from +3 in that it is synthetic. Its friction characteristcs are EXACTLY the same. They had to be to be backward compatible with all the ATF 7176, ATF+2, ATF+3 trannys. ATF+4 will give longer service life without losing its quality. It wont suffer from as rapid a thermal breakdown as the +3 will. Also it aids in cold weather performance, synthetics dont get very thick when cold so its not as slow to shift on winter mornings. The A604 is such a picky tranny I would say its worth it to run the ATF+4 in it.
The symptoms you described are perfectly normal in cold weather if you are running +3. The fluid is very thick whens its cold and the tranny limits upshifting until it reaches operating temperature. ATF+4 will help to eliminate that problem.

3. DONT use any additives in this tranny! About the only thing I would trust in it is AutoRX but only at the recommended dosage. Never add in any of that Lucas or Lubeguard to these things or you will begine to feel shudders and slipping. Esp with the Lucas stuff. Best thing to do for these trannies is, best fluid(ATF+4) and a fluid cooler. The 604 generates alot of heat and its the #1 killer of these units.

4. If you want to switch to ATF+4, and you should IMO. You will need a full flush. You dont really want a 50/50 mix of +3 and +4. Make sure you take it to a trusted shop, preferably one that has experience with this type of tranny.
 
Since this is a failing transmission, I wouldn't invest in Amsoil. Your best bet is to buy the ATF+3 or ATF+4 at your local autoparts stores.

ATF+4, which has better cold weather performance and is labelled a synthetic, would be my 1st choice.

Either ARX the tranny prior to the filter change and full machine flush, or just use lubegard/smartblend RED added to the new ATF+4.

Buy a filter kit, drop the pan, clean it, replace the filter, button her up, top off the ATF and drive for a couple of weeks on this new filter and partial fluid change.
If all feels well, perform a full cooler line or t-tec type flush.

Don't let the shop use any solvents in the transmission. Don't use the Lucas snot which will only thicken the fluid and is not what you want in the winter.

Low ATF level will cause similar issues. Make sure ATF dipstick is exercised regularly.

Reference a service manual for any in car transmission adjustments.

And, make sure that any wiring on the transmission is not corroded.
 
1) I would use ATF+4 only. It is the latest revision of ATF+ fluids and works wonderfully. Dexron does NOT equal death in any Chrysler automatic, it will merely cause firmer shifts. However, TQ shudder may be an issue. There are many performance transmissions in Ram pick-ups that use Dexron, but all are heavily modified from stock.

I'd stick to a licensed ATF+4 product for now. You can purchase Valvoline ATF+4 from an auto parts store for about $3.50/qt. It isn't worth it to spend the extra dough for Amsoil on a transmission with questionable longevity. The synthetic nature of ATF+4 will allow it to perform wonderfully during low-temps.

2) ATF+4 is a fluid that contains a Group III base oil. It is technically a synthetic based product and works very well.

ATF+4 has identical frictional properties to ATF+3. However, +4 has improved dynamic friction retention that allows it to perform for > 100K without serious loss of frictional properties.

Use ATF+4. The two will mix just fine in the transmission. Don't know where someone came up with the idea that the two would be incompatible.

3) For an over-the-counter product, use Lubegard ATF protectant from Napa Auto Parts. It works well and is not snake oil. Lubegard is a widely respected brand in the transmission industry. Otherwise, Auto-RX would be my choice.

4) A T-Tec fluid exchange (or similar) would be the best choice.

However, I would begin by dropping the pan, changing the filter, and adding a full bottle of Lubegard ATF protectant and the correct amount of ATF+4. Reset the transmission TCM by disconnecing the battery cables overnight. See if things improve. If so, buy yourself a "drill pump" from a hardware store for about $15. Extract 4 quarts from the dipstick tube at the next oil change and refill with ATF+4 and more Lubegard at the recommended dosage. (1oz/qt; A604 has a 10 qt capacity, which is why I suggested that you add the full bottle initially) Continue doing this until you've done 3 "suck-n-fills," which will replace greater than 80% of the old fluid, about the same amount that a T-Tec would remove.
 
They will mix just fine, it was always just viewed as you switch to a synthetic for the a reason and you wont get the full benefits by using a "blend". But yeah there no harm in say topping up with ATF 4 and doing a pan drop. Eventually you will get a majority of 4 in there.


The main trouble with Dexron in the 604 that makes it stand out away from say the more dependable 3 speed 413 was that when the transmission picks up that there is something wrong with the feedback its getting from the clutches it will try to adjust for the condition and this often results in shudders, rough shifting, or the infamous limp home mode if its bad enough. Its why it was NEVER recommended that it be run in the modern 4 speeds.

However, it was recommended on the old 3 speeds for models made before lockup converters were phased in. Even on the newer models I have heard of guys running it, heck I know guys that run type F in there cause it gives a "sporty" firm shift. Doesnt do anything but cause slightly accelerated wear in the clutch packs.

I honestly havent really fully trusted lubeguard since they claimed that their additive could turn Dexron into ATF+3. What they dont mention readily is that the additive was designed to create a fluid similar to ATF 7176, the original fluid that evolved and became +3. So they have no grounds to actually claim +3 performance. I would just use plain old ATF+4, it will deliver a plenty long service life, probably longer than the tranny itself.

I dont mind working on 413s, but those 604s are whole different beasts. I wouldnt try anything funny or adventerous unless you are up for an expensive adventure. Market rebuild price on a 604 in my neck of the woods is 1200-1800. 413 rebuilds are only about 800. If you eventually opt for a rebuild, make sure you get all the updates. When properly updated the new versions of the 604 and the stronger 606 are quite dependable.
 
If anyone doubts the effects of DexIII in these transmissions, go read all the stuff on this over at allpar.com.

I would use the ATF+4. I would also stay away from Lubegard, but if you must use it, use the red bottle w/ ATF+3/4. The black bottle is to "convert" DexIII.

Jeff
 
ATF+4 is a great fluid. It behaves wonderfully under even moderate abuse. Chrysler service bulletins now call for atf4 to be used in most atf3 ATs. (see allpar.com).

Echo statement above on Dex3. It's a no-no. The tranny computer will compensate for the quicker clutch engagement by releasing the clutch and trying again, repeatedly. It will "feel" the same, but the added cycling causes accelerated clutch wear. #1 cause of A604 early death. The "use dexron as substitute" on the dipstick is an "oopsie" from daimler-chrysler.

Just flush as much of the old stuff out as you can, add +4. Being that it's acting up, I wouldn't look for a fix in a bottle. If there's been damage, you're too late. ATFs already include compounds to maintain seals and cleanliness, so I'd be cautious about additives.

Meep
 
That problem with Lucas is noted on allpar.com that when a person bought it they added in the recommended dosage and they immediately noticed sever shudder in the transmission and bad slipping. It shows that nothing that modifies friction characteristics should ever be used in a tranny without knowing exactly what effects it will have.


Good to hear your transmission sounds happier with its new juice!

Oh yeah, alot of these trannies have the imfamous bump down shift. Even my 3 speed has it. The computer upgrades have helped the 604 units to null that down a bit. The upgrades can cost up to 200 at a dealer though. Best of luck, and come visit us at allpar.com on the forums!

EDIT: I forgot to add, your mechanic disconnecting the computer was a good thing to do. It causes the tranny computer to reset clearing out all the old settings. For the next 50-100 miles it MIGHT not shift as well as it should. this is normal as well since the computer needs to relearn its new fluid and your driving habits. The 604 has an "adaptive" TCM, it will adapt shifting patterns based on your driving style. So it will relearn how to shift itself and how you drive.
 
Thank you very much for the info everyone, I really appreciate it.

My dad and I went to a local Chrysler dealer and bought 15 liters of Mopar ATF+4 and a Mopar transmission filter. The transmission flush and service was done by my dad's friend - a licensed mechanic who does automotive work out of his well equipped shop at home.

To perform the flush, I believe he disconnected one of the transmission cooler lines and was able to suck out nearly all of the old fluid. He flushed the tranny with ATF+4 - he did not use any additives or cleaners. He also dropped the pan and installed the new filter. Thankfully, there were no metal particles or strange material on the bottom of the pan

After the mechanic performed the flush and service, he went to drive the car. The transmission was stuck in 2nd gear (limp mode), so he shut off the car and disconnected the negative battery cable. He reconnected the cable and the transmission worked fine after that.

We picked up the car last night, and the transmission worked fine. My dad drove the car early this morning, and the transmission shifted into gear right away - so far so good. I will keep everyone posted...

[ August 11, 2006, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Wheeler ]
 
The last time the transmission fluid and filter were changed was back in 1999, so it was long overdue. At the time, we put in Mopar ATF+2 (or was it ATF+3? I can't quite remember) and a Mopar tranny filter. Unfortunately, I can't remember if the tranny fluid was flushed out.

Several years ago, the transmission started having shifting problems in cold weather. The fluid level was a little low, so my Dad added a 1/2 litre of tranny fluid - unfortunately, he put in Dexron III by accident. Some time later, we put in a bottle of Kleen Flo transmission additive - that didn't seem to help at all.

Earlier this year, we put in a 1/3 bottle of Lucas Transmission Fix. In retrospect, that was a mistake - I think the transmission actually got worse. I think the thick Lucas additive made the transmission more sluggish in cold weather.

One more thing - the transmission has always had a "bump stop" condition. I think this may be caused by the transmission computer - either the computer needs to be reflashed or replaced.

Thanks again for your help everyone, I really appreciate it!

[ August 11, 2006, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Wheeler ]
 
Today I had the fluid eschanged in my '94 T&C to ATF+4. The tech [ADVANCE QUICK LUBE] said the pump was pumping 5# and shoud be at near 30#.
It
runs and shifts perfectly as it did before.
Do I have a problem?
 
Since when did quick lubes stock ATF+4 specific fluids?

Check your receipt. The shop probably installed a multi-vehicle product, such as Pennzoil Multi-Vehicle.
 
I furnished 16 qts of valvoline ATF+4 from O'riley. This was at 3.69,.whitch was 1.20 a qt.
less expensive than AAP and AZ, although AAP would
have price matched.
 
Personally I dont trust any of those quick lube places for much of anything. If you vehicle is driving fine and shifting fine I think you are ok. If worried find some places that will do a free or low cost code scan or another trusted tranny shop to have a look at it. But if your line pressure is that low, your shifts would be VERY soft and "mushy" or it might fail to shift if the pressure drops low enough.
 
The 604 has its own computer that controls it. They can plug in to it to see if its registered any codes, I would think if the tranny is down on line pressure it would trigger some sort of codes alerting to the condition.

Some places, like Cottman will scan for free, or at least my local locations do. Other places will sometimes offer the same thing, but if not a reg tranny shop will charge 35-60 or so for it.

But if your tranny is running fine, I think you might be ok.
 
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