Seattle...a family city?!

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Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: stchman
As ludicrous as this sounds on the surface, has their been any law passed that has STOPPED people from doing drugs?

Isn't having a heroine bar no different than having a bar that serves alcohol? A lot of these bars that serve alcohol are in neighborhoods. People stop in the local pub for a few drinks, get drunk, drive home, and have an accident, maybe kill someone, get a DUI, no biggie. Right? How family friendly is that?


Well of course you are right. How stupid of me to think that socially, legally, and morally heroin addicts are exactly the same as a fella having a beer at a bar!

I don't know what got into me.



You do know that alcohol related deaths in this country are greater than ALL illegal drugs combined?

Also the illegal drug deaths do not include traffic fatalities from drunk drivers.

So remind me again how moral it is to drink and how immoral it is to do drugs.


I don't care if booze kills a million per year. That is a separate issue with all it's own set of problems.
What does that have to do with allowing drug addicts to get free (right..."free") needles and doctor assisted shoot-ups in a city park?
And just for argument sake...you think that no real difference exists if a guy grabs a bottle of beer at a family pic-nic...or decides to pull out a needle and shoot-up with heroin? Same thing huh? Morally cool with you then?
Maybe at the Thanksgiving table you can pass around a tray of needles instead of spiked eggnog...same thing.
 
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Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
[Hasn't "Keep Austin Weird" been the motto for a few decades now?? I remember seeing that bumper sticker many years ago. Now that the techies have grown to rival a lot of the bigger cities it's just more generically urban ( socially and economically ) and less "Texas" than it was in years past. They need more 24 hour drive thru zoos like they used to have in Pecos TX.

Personally, I find Seattle and Portland just variations on San Francisco in a lot of ways...just with a lot better traffic grid and infrastructure and more rain.
A few decades might be stretching it...more like one. If I recall, it was a slogan to counter-act people shopping at other stores that had moved in with the influx. They were going with what they knew, instead of local. Being Austin, the local merchants thought "Shop Local" was equivalent to "Keep Austin Weird", thus the bumper sticker. Go figure.....not to me.

The problem now is the property taxes & house prices are so high for the old, treasured neighborhoods, only the well-to-do can afford to live there. Older structures are regularly bull-dozed as the land is worth far more. It's often replaced with a very contemporary structure, that looks out-of-place in an established neighborhood. Thus there goes the "character" of the neighborhood.

Lots of the transplants from Seattle, in particular, are easily ID'd because they wear black everything, during the Summer, when the solar heat index is around 125°F! I'm surprised they don't melt!

Heatstroke is the second leading cause of weather-related deaths here. Second only to those driving through low-water crossings during flash floods.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
[Hasn't "Keep Austin Weird" been the motto for a few decades now?? I remember seeing that bumper sticker many years ago. Now that the techies have grown to rival a lot of the bigger cities it's just more generically urban ( socially and economically ) and less "Texas" than it was in years past. They need more 24 hour drive thru zoos like they used to have in Pecos TX.

Personally, I find Seattle and Portland just variations on San Francisco in a lot of ways...just with a lot better traffic grid and infrastructure and more rain.
A few decades might be stretching it...more like one. If I recall, it was a slogan to counter-act people shopping at other stores that had moved in with the influx. They were going with what they knew, instead of local. Being Austin, the local merchants thought "Shop Local" was equivalent to "Keep Austin Weird", thus the bumper sticker. Go figure.....not to me.

The problem now is the property taxes & house prices are so high for the old, treasured neighborhoods, only the well-to-do can afford to live there. Older structures are regularly bull-dozed as the land is worth far more. It's often replaced with a very contemporary structure, that looks out-of-place in an established neighborhood. Thus there goes the "character" of the neighborhood.

Lots of the transplants from Seattle, in particular, are easily ID'd because they wear black everything, during the Summer, when the solar heat index is around 125°F! I'm surprised they don't melt!

Heatstroke is the second leading cause of weather-related deaths here. Second only to those driving through low-water crossings during flash floods.



That "Keep Austin Weird" dumb-assery was and is nothing more than pseudo hippy wannabe's that come from affluent families but insist on "making their statement" by not using soap,dying their hair blue,and trying to look "poor". But at the end of the day they all go home to their house in the suburbs. They should save their statement for Halloween and go trick or treating or something haha.
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: stchman
As ludicrous as this sounds on the surface, has their been any law passed that has STOPPED people from doing drugs?

Isn't having a heroine bar no different than having a bar that serves alcohol? A lot of these bars that serve alcohol are in neighborhoods. People stop in the local pub for a few drinks, get drunk, drive home, and have an accident, maybe kill someone, get a DUI, no biggie. Right? How family friendly is that?


Well of course you are right. How stupid of me to think that socially, legally, and morally heroin addicts are exactly the same as a fella having a beer at a bar!

I don't know what got into me.



You do know that alcohol related deaths in this country are greater than ALL illegal drugs combined?

Also the illegal drug deaths do not include traffic fatalities from drunk drivers.

So remind me again how moral it is to drink and how immoral it is to do drugs.


I don't care if booze kills a million per year. That is a separate issue with all it's own set of problems.
What does that have to do with allowing drug addicts to get free (right..."free") needles and doctor assisted shoot-ups in a city park?
And just for argument sake...you think that no real difference exists if a guy grabs a bottle of beer at a family pic-nic...or decides to pull out a needle and shoot-up with heroin? Same thing huh? Morally cool with you then?
Maybe at the Thanksgiving table you can pass around a tray of needles instead of spiked eggnog...same thing.


I'm not saying that it is right or wrong, just that people demonize drugs but it is OK to go get plastered and run over a family. Booze is legal and the government gets their cut.
 
Originally Posted By: stchman
I'm not saying that it is right or wrong, just that people demonize drugs but it is OK to go get plastered and run over a family. Booze is legal and the government gets their cut.


Also... Fluoride, and beef.

When will people learn that the Government will never be able to stop determined individuals from doing what they wish. They MAY be able to stop attacks in Boston or NY Times Square, but it takes THOUSANDS of police to do so..
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
I can't wait until this gets all set up at the local park. It will be so awesome being able to shoot-up heroin with a doctor available.

It will be a great place to take the kids and grandparents when they visit.

Lovely.

http://mynorthwest.com/992/2853682/Rantz-Seattle-wants-to-essentially-legalize-heroin


Fairly inflamatory piece there, and appears to have had the publishers effort rewarded.

Drug injecting rooms aren't "legalising" the drug as the article suggests...they are providing a safe place, and safe fix kit for those who would do it in a ditch with a 20 times over used needle.

And there's someone there to resuscitate/render aid if necessary.

Oz has been doing it a long time now, and it hsa saved many lives (well stopped a lot of people being dead).

Didn't legalise it, as they turn up with their drain cleaner and icing sugar cut smack, that they inject themselves.

Didn't have every schoolkid in the nation line up to inject themselves.

Didn't even turn the nuns in the nearby tyke school become prostitutes.

It DID stop some people being dead...and having been near that, some changed their ways.

It DID start to have some "tracability" on the bad cuts and intentional hot-shots, which sort of cleaned up the dealers in some small way.

Quote:
But, moreover, heroin is never safe.


never is an inflamatory word...medicine considers any number of opiates to be "safe"...and heroin can be too.

When my children were really little, we went to a family oriented park to feed the possums and ducks, and eat a sandwich.

Sitting near us was a family who were discussing the methodone clinic, and the son(?) who was describing his first experience of free methodone.

No one is going to make you use heroin in a shooting house.
 
The news channels here seem ablaze about the heroin crisis in NH, so as much as I'd like to ignore what Seattle is looking at, I guess I have to think about it.

Question: has anyone looked at the cost in dollars? I presume free needles and having docs on hand will cost taxpayers something. But is that cost offset by less ambulances running overdoses to the ER? To go slightly tangential, is this a kind of program that a hospital could undertake, not using public money (and write the money off as a tax break of some sort), as a method of controlling their own costs?

Shannow's mention of the dealers being cleaned up is intriguing. Makes sense, small side benefit I guess.

*

I still think this verges on making drugs "legal" but clearly the current war on drugs has been a dismal (and costly) failure.
 
So if someone shoots up in these govt sanctioned areas and then proceeds to kill someones family members (auto accident, murder, etc) the city is going to be sued big time.
 
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Mods... can you please just sticky this thread as a reminder of why political posts don't work around here.

Originally Posted By: andrewg
I can't wait until this gets all set up at the local park. It will be so awesome being able to shoot-up heroin with a doctor available.

It will be a great place to take the kids and grandparents when they visit.

Lovely.

http://mynorthwest.com/992/2853682/Rantz-Seattle-wants-to-essentially-legalize-heroin


Lots of underlying political potential. A bit of a troll-bait topic. Lets see where it goes...

Originally Posted By: CT8
The public got the politicians they voted for.


Third reply and we have the first mention of politics. No specific political party reference... but we all know what you mean.

Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
We should feel honored that these smart people with their genius ideas are here to take care of us and show us how we should behave and live. Just imagine what life would be like if we had to go back to following every law on the books instead of letting politicians pick the ones they like.


A few replies later, more talk of politics. Again, no specific political party reference... but we still know what you mean. The usual posters in these threads are still playing coy and aiming for plausible deniability about making political posts.

Originally Posted By: Doog
Liberals love to pass laws.....more laws and more laws. They also all want a "safe space" where they are subject to no judgement or criticism.

fragile little things....they are...as for the heroin thing...maybe they need to ask Charlie Sheen for an expert opinion.


There it is! The first real political post. Finger pointing and name calling. No going back now...

Originally Posted By: CT8
...as well as their cost for the bleeding hearts that feel the need to feed and shelter them.


Some more name calling. Why not? The big leap has been made. Pile on in!

Originally Posted By: Oregoonian

+1.....Exactly my thoughts. The liberal Seattle government has ruined a once beautiful city.....and liberalism continues to do so throughout the country.


Now this is a whopper! We have a huge generalization and a whole bunch of bluster. We've moved from Seattle to the whole country.

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice

Maybe Seattle will be the next Chicago.... ?


More piling on.

Now, when this thread gets close, and of course it will, who will be the first to bring it up and talk about how we're all adults and how come we can't have civilized dialog?

I don't see anything civilized or constructive here. I see a bunch of excrement being thrown in the same direction. No two-way discussion. No adult conversation. Just a bunch of verbal diarrhea. This is how EVERY SINGLE POLITICAL THREAD ENDS UP and it always involves a couple of the people I've quoted.

So mods, please feel free to use this as an example of why we can't have nice things.


Quoted for posterity.
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg

"Deliberately provocative"? It's a decision about to take place in a city near my home.

You know...I have no idea nor do I really care what terms you use to try to say that somehow my desire to have a decent city to take my family to is somehow "ludicrous". People that work and pay taxes deserve to visit a city and choose ANY park they desire WITHOUT having to witness scum shoot-up. This type of misdirected "help" can occur in private clinics or facilities away from parks. What do you think parks are for...addicts? Are parks designed and paid for so criminals can break of our laws? That in itself is highly "ludicrous" and without any regard for decent people to enjoy a city.
Amsterdam? What a success story that is.


This is not "near your home". It's near my home. And since I have to walk on these streets on a daily basis, I will tell you that I'm all for it. The end result will be that drug activity will be a bit more centralized and I think it's way more likely that the crime that goes with that activity will be reduced.

Seattle is no different from any other major city or small town. There are drug problems. You can pretend that doesn't exist or you can try to deal with it. Pretending it doesn't exist doesn't seem to work, nor does "locking them all up".

There's a reason that most residents and most council members support it: they actually live here and they see what it's like. The current way isn't working, and it hasn't worked for at least the last 20 years that I've lived in the neighborhood.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: andrewg

"Deliberately provocative"? It's a decision about to take place in a city near my home.

You know...I have no idea nor do I really care what terms you use to try to say that somehow my desire to have a decent city to take my family to is somehow "ludicrous". People that work and pay taxes deserve to visit a city and choose ANY park they desire WITHOUT having to witness scum shoot-up. This type of misdirected "help" can occur in private clinics or facilities away from parks. What do you think parks are for...addicts? Are parks designed and paid for so criminals can break of our laws? That in itself is highly "ludicrous" and without any regard for decent people to enjoy a city.
Amsterdam? What a success story that is.


This is not "near your home". It's near my home. And since I have to walk on these streets on a daily basis, I will tell you that I'm all for it. The end result will be that drug activity will be a bit more centralized and I think it's way more likely that the crime that goes with that activity will be reduced.

Seattle is no different from any other major city or small town. There are drug problems. You can pretend that doesn't exist or you can try to deal with it. Pretending it doesn't exist doesn't seem to work, nor does "locking them all up".

There's a reason that most residents and most council members support it: they actually live here and they see what it's like. The current way isn't working, and it hasn't worked for at least the last 20 years that I've lived in the neighborhood.


Don't presume to tell me that only you can determine what his near my home.

I work in Seattle daily. I also have business in the city on many weekends as well as the desire to enjoy the waterfront, Seattle Center, Green Lake, and the Westlake Mall. It IS near my home. You might think that a 25 minute drive isn't "near"...but I guess that is your perogitive.

Yes...you and many others that live in the city have continued to vote for and support such ideas put forth by others with your mind set. Unfortunately, when you people makes such idiotic decisions...including the many other crazy ones Seattle is known for....it doesn't just stay within the city limits. What Seattle does...the county eventually does. You guys are like a cancer of ridiculous fees, taxes, laws, and lifestyles that eventually spreads.

Seattle has become a joke in the state. You know this as do all the residents. It's become the poster-city as to how NOT to run a city. Get over it and stop denying reality. Seattle hasn't been an "Emerald City" for about 30 years or more.
I ought to know...I've been commuting, working, and visiting the city since 1970.

You and others like to appease what you can't combat. You give in....just like the heroin problem. Instead of coming up with real solutions that generally involve a multi-pronged, tough road of prevention, law enforcement, and cultural change.....you do the typical weak, thoughtless approach of appeasement and basically throw the towel in....with needles included.

I'm not the one "pretending". This entire idea that Seattle has is pretending.
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
so...do you support a return to alcohol prohibition, then?


That's a big jump.

Are you saying that a guy having a beer and a person shooting heroin is equal?

So...do you think we should sell heroin at Safeway then?
 
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Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Please stop tap-dancing and answer the simple question.


My answer is no, wasn't that clear to you?

Now answer my question.
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Heroin sould be legal.


You are the one tap dancing....so if heroin is legal and is no different (maybe even less harmful in your mind)...should it just be sold in supermarkets like beer or wine is?
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Heroin sould be legal.


It might as well be, it is just as easy to acquire as if it were sold at Safeway. All we're doing now is funding criminal gangs with it. The current war on drugs is not working, we need to try something different.
 
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Heroin sould be legal.


It might as well be, it is just as easy to acquire as if it were sold at Safeway. All we're doing now is funding criminal gangs with it. The current war on drugs is not working, we need to try something different.


I'm just trying to figure out if those with the legalize heroin idea and constant mantra that booze is just as bad or worse...would think it no different to sell at a grocery store than a bottle of wine.

Talk about a simple question...
 
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Heroin sould be legal.


It might as well be, it is just as easy to acquire as if it were sold at Safeway. All we're doing now is funding criminal gangs with it. The current war on drugs is not working, we need to try something different.


I'm just trying to figure out if those with the legalize heroin idea and constant mantra that booze is just as bad or worse...would think it no different to sell at a grocery store than a bottle of wine.

Talk about a simple question...


They're both intoxicating substances. Is there really a difference?
 
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