Seal Conditioning with Synth based oils

[MolaKule]

Bob,

"Now with the dirt and grime gone acting like a seal, it starts to
cause leaks after being cleaned more so with synth's than with the conventions with less cleaning abilities. "

I saw this exact situation with the Gulf-II, Mobil and early Amsoil's back in the early to mid-seventies . Upon introduction of the synth (after using dino's), the sludge "seal" was removed (I.E., the synth's di-esters removed the hardened sludge at the seal interface). This was ONLY the case when Mobil's early 5W20 and Amsoil's 10WXX products were primarily di-esters. What I saw in many cases, was the ester "overswelling" the seal which caused wearing of the inner bore of the seal causing leaks. Later, additives were introduced which negated the di-ester's overswelling.

Then their formaulations went to PAO's and various flavors of polyol esters. The PAO's slightly hardened the seals whereas the ester slightly swelled the seals, and subsequently, they summarily cancelled each other's seal activity to a somewhat neutral state, with only slight seal swell - which is what is needed!

BTW, and we should clarify, we are discussing SEALS which mate with a rotating component such as a journal. Oil pan GASKETS and valve cover GASKETS are made of different materials.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

I don't know Molakule.

The primary reason why you don't see near the problem today with change over from dino to synth leaks is due to the newer type of seals but also the newer type of dinos are not hardening the seals as much therefore synth's are not having to clean as much either as it was in earlier years.

I think that seal conditioning is not a part of a full/blend synth oil as much as one would like to believe. More than anything, because of the detergent packages and the higher quality base stock, the oil can maintain seal conditions better and for longer period of times than with the older oils/seals.

Example, Had a toyota, low miles, sludged up bad, but still running. Guy puts in ATF along with synth oil To clean the engine and it does an excellent job doing so. Within 3000 miles, the customer came back with engine smoking. This was due to valve stem seal leaks developed from the cleaning of the sludge. If there was any conditioning of seals taking place, the esters/pao's would have helped this situation.

This was at the time when I started to come by and visit with the toyota guys and demonstrate the neutra 131. So, We took this customers car and dropped a full bottle in, with in 1000 miles, his smoking went completly away. Now toyota buys cases of the 131 neutra and uses it in drive problems in the gas,oil and general service.

[ July 09, 2002, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[MolaKule]

"Example, Had a toyota, low miles, sludged up bad, but still running. Guy puts in ATF along with synth oil To clean the engine and it does an excellent job doing so. Within 3000 miles, the customer came back with engine smoking. This was due to valve stem seal leaks developed from the cleaning of the sludge. If there was any conditioning of seals taking place, the esters/pao's would have helped this situation."

Bob,

If the seals had already been damaged by the hardenend sludge, I doubt anything could bring them back to life; they would most likely have to be replaced. When the bore of the seal has been enlarged to a great extent, no amount of seal sweal can bring it back to life. Add to hat the vacuum at the seal, and engine oil is sucked into combustion chamber; blue smoe.

When I said seal swell in the above context, I was referring to a situation in which the seals aren't damaged and in which the nitrile ester additive (seal swell agent) keeps a "maintenance" swell applied to the seal.

 

[MolaKule]

Bob Sez, "I think there is too much enphisis put on the word synth and try making it sound like if that word exists in the name it is superior for wear protection, seal conditioning, heat dispursment and so on. "

I would agree and disagree. Synth's are not the all-cure for everything. I would disagree as to heat, I think I've shown that synth is better than dino in terms of heat transfer, using engineering data. Wear protection - in most regimes yes, it is better, IF it has a good boundary lube such as Moly or advanced esters. Seal conditioning - in the earlier years synth's were poor; today, no better no worse than dinos (and that's what I stated above concerning pure esters) and I think your test has shown that. For the record, I have never said synth's are better at seal conditioning. What I have attempted to show is that with the correct proportion of base oils, synth's are as good as dinos (or saying it a different way, its no worse) at seal conditioning. Cleanliness, yes synth's are superior.

I think we will both agree to disagree on some of the items but still agree on true synth's ability to resist oxidation and sludging.

Bob, I think one of the problems with our language is the word "resist." To me, resist doesn't imply a cure-all or a verb that implies it will fix something if already broken. It simply means that that it will fight longer to maintain a certain "state." I think it has been shown that higher levels of vitamin A, C, E, etc., will help your body resist cellular degradation and disease. But your immune system has certain limits on how much and how long it can fight. When the immune system breaks down, disease encroaches. I look at synth's as vitamin A, C, E etc that helps to maintain a healthy engine and help it resist attack better than do dino's.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

OH, I totally agree that I will at many times disagree and agree with many people and not just you.

As for the synth's doing it's thing with natural seal swelling, Those statements where inferred long ago in many other posts and particularly in refference to the High Mileage motor oils as they are suppose to "condition" seals with the "synth esters" and the engine with all the new antiwear additives and such. This is what I was trying to de-bunk so to speak. From what I have been seeing, this has been another one of those advertising gimmicks directed right at consumers with no actual merit in my opinion.

You just happen to be the only one jumping on this statement as if you were guilty of saying it.

(which I never did say you did, or I don't think I did

Now you got me wondering!). Oh well cheers!

 

[MolaKule]

Bob,

What full synth companies were saying they were superior at seal swell or seal conditioning?

I too am trying to debunk some old wives tales.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Never said any company stated that, just one of those mis informed threads that is passing around information like that.

Of course this is how we all come to learn by hearing things and do investigations that reveal the truths. Just like the moly issue with the maxlife oil.

 

[dragboat]

I see it totally different than "seal conditioners ". I see it as added to a synthetic base oil to keep the base oil from destroying the seal by shrinking it and burning it up as the cranshaft moves on it.

Seal protecting agents added to the base oil I would call them

Also a couple of different valve guide seals and how thay work is at issue here. Take an umbrella style that has oil coked up high on the valve stem and the seal is caught and traveling up and down with the valve,,the 131 or whatever else that might be used might be merely releasing the seal so it stays down on the guide boss where it belongs making one think it has been softned or rejuvenated. Ponder that!

[ July 09, 2002, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Obviously you cannot fix or condition a seal that has been damaged/cracked, but if coked up and harden'd by heat, there is conditioners that can clean the crusted hardened seal and rejuve it to such a point that it will provide the sealing needed. I have seen this additive rectifiy many motors with this problem as well as transmissions and hydraulic system seals.

All I can say is that so far, Synth oils themselves have not proven to me that they can condition a seal but maintain an already conditioned seal. The issue of synth's conditioning seals has been talked about many times and in theory it maybe possible but I've seen way too many times, people put in synth's and have nothing more than higher oil consumption due to the higher cleaning of the seals allowing the oil to pass by easier with no conditioning taking effect until an additive such as the 131 or auto rx has been applied.

In older applications, I'm sure that the overswelling was an issue as was the compatibility of mineral and synth's mixing was. Just as the compatibility issue with synth's and minerals being mixed and causing damage so must have been the over swelling of seals. I suspect that there could have been many things done and like most doctors who give you one medication to cure you and another to counter side effects from the first one, oil companies maybe doing as you indicated but then they may have just eliminated any seal swelling agents to begin with and concentrated on just the maintaince of the oil condition of the oil over time.

That is what most all synth base oils provide anyway is the ability to survive longer drains by maintaining base oil life longer and to say it does condition seals naturally...hmmmm

I'm not convinced.

I think there is too much enphisis put on the word synth and try making it sound like if that word exists in the name it is superior for wear protection, seal conditioning, heat dispursment and so on.

This is why I do these little tests to demostrate that the base oil has it's points but without the different additives in play with it, antiwear, friction modifiers,detergents and so on that this is just one little part of this mix and so is this seal conditioning theory of synth's.

I saw no difference in the new seal's measurement compared to what the dino's high mileage oil and the full/blend synth's seals. If heat is the determining factor, I'd also bet that everyone of these oils, dino and synth's would give the same effective results on the seals therefore full synth's in my opinion does not condition seals any more effectivly than any other oil. They Do clean better, thus giving the seal leaking problems from synth's. That I'll agree with.

 

[buster]

I miss dragboat. Always had good info to share.

 

[aquariuscsm]

That's what had me curious about trying an oci of Redline. I was wondering if the ester base would "swell" or "condition" the valve cover gasket,as I have a tiny seep there.

 

[asharris7]

Originally Posted By: buster
I miss dragboat. Always had good info to share.


What happend to him?

 

[boxcartommie22]

never had a vehicle leak fluids while using red line oil products
esters keep the seals in great shape..of course red line has a bit of pao in it too.

 

[Tempest]

IMHO, GRP III and PAO don't actively attack seals, rather they simply don't aid in the seal's longevity. Seal "swellers" are added to oil so as to maintain the seal's pliability.