Seal Conditioning with Synth based oils

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Bob: You have gone to a lot of trouble to run this test, and I for one appreciate it. It does show some good comparisions between different oil setting in the containers. I wonder if in real life conditions, inside the engine at operating temps if it would make any difference with the esters and PAO.

Very interesting.
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Thanks Johnny,

I'm sure that with heat as a factor it would amplify what we see in this bench test.

I think it does well to point out and makes good sense as to why so many experience seal leaks with synth's. I suspect that it is those that have seals that have been abused so to speak in older motors, that change over to full synths that incurr this problem and that the natural base oils cannot condition the seals. This is what was really bugging me about all this seal conditioning of synth's and such which I really didn't buy. Especially these high mileage motor oils, have they actually cleaned as well as a full synth, then they too would create leaking seals.

From what I see, I think that after you do the damage of cleaning a seal by using the synth's, that going back to a mineral would reduce the leak but not actually completly seal it back up.
 
Which Maxlife was that, SL or SJ? We have heard that the SL has triple the detergents (although how can we believe Valvoline on anything now that we found out Maxlife has no moly)
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quote:

Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
that was the new 10w40 SL maxlife.

Just imagine, if the SL stuff has triple the detergents of the SJ Maxlife, imagine how poorly the SJ stuff would have been on this test!
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Yet again Maxlife disappoints me. This oil doesn't appear to be anything special at all now. It has no moly and it doesn't clean worth a **** or condition the seals? It's an overpriced dino oil now, not an underpriced miracle oil like we thought.
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Bob,
Thanks for running another test.
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Was the orings Neoprene rubber?

So to not start another thread I have had a 32 year old Corvette side yoke different seal soaking in Synergen oil treatment for 6 days and that seal was rock hard darn near,now is much softer and seems as a new seal would be but did not measure it before and after because it was near destroyed in removing . It did not disperse any dirt until I picked it up out of the container then dirt ran off it suggesting a little oil pressure and sloshing would have cleaned the seal if it was a motor seal.

Thanks again for the test
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Quote:
"not an underpriced miracle oil like we thought."

We? Please don't include me in that!
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Just kidding ,just kidding! Well,not really
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[ July 08, 2002, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 
Valvoline didn't claim it on the website, but I believe Kevin was told by one of the tech reps that it had 400ppm of moly disulfate. Plus there was that oil analysis of a virgin 10w40 Maxlife sample on Maxima.org which showed 290ppm of moly.

I feel so stupid now for thinking all this time that I was running an oil with moly!

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I doubt seriously that the valve seals in the motor oils would have swelled any with heat as they are hardened up.

I think there is certain chemistry additives used to actually help soften seals and rejuve them which is not found in regular motor oils.

I know that I could take a hard platen(the rubber roller in an old printer) and spray it down with a standard oil, and it would not do anything but get slick, whereas I had some actual platen rubberizer that when applied it made the rubber clean and tacky as well as somewhat plyable.
 
Sorry Patman. And it does not have 17% esters in it either. Remember?

The Pennzoil HM does have some moly, but not much. Less than 100ppm. I'm telling you, if moly is your thing you should buy the Schaeffer's at all cost. You keep talking about how expensive things are in Canada, but tell me this, what's that good looking car worth to you. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Johnny, you are absolutely right! I got an email from the Schaeffers guy in Canada, and I'm looking into ordering a case of the 10w30 blend! It shouldn't be too expensive since I'll be ordering within Canada, other than the cost of the shipping being probably not too cheap.
 
Patman, As Johnny suggested if you really feel you need the moly,the Shaeffers is the way to go.

Protect that motor in my opinion because it is one $%^ to remove and replace for repair.Quit changing around on oils will be one of the best ways to protect it in my opinion.
I have been around many of those motors like you have,,bet you can't guess what oil I would have in it if it were mine
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Or could you?
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I hope you find what you are looking for soon. That 530 hp 383 I sent to Ontario is running ,,aww never mind,,hard to guess what I demanded he use! He He!
 
Bob,

I for one enjoy your tests.

One thing I did notice (on the second part) was that the full synth's seemed to dissolve and
disperse the seal deposits into small particles whereas the Schaeffer's seemed to "break" it up into larger size granules. I would expect this of a concentrate vs. a synth.

I would only add that heat activation by high engine temps would accelerate this "dissolution" or "break-up" of deposits in a real engine.

KUTGW
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I enjoyed the test but clearly there is still an sythetic oil/seal compatibility issue.

In the Polymer seal family there are 13 different types.Neoprene like Bobs o rings are a Elastomer and some are Nitrile's.
There are Buna n's,Vitons and Silicons

A nameles seal company was hired by Mobil to test there PAO Synthetic. I could not pull all of the information from the guy I spoke with but as tested the Nitrile and Viton seals was the best and Silicon seals was brutalized by Mobil 1 in long term tests

Also was told Nitrile seals,Buna N's and Viton seals will swell some when exposed to any type oil,mineral based or not

I finally found out what the seal compostion type was on my car,,Neoprene which is an Elastomer. So guess what,close to figuring it all out if I could run a synthetic or a blend but still seem far from knowing for sure? Blah!
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[ July 08, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 
Dragboat, You have some interesting points to the seals composistion and here is my thoughts on how the 131 handles this as opposed to the motor oils.

The 131 is designed to be used in transmissions, hydraulic systems, motor oils, gear boxes and fuel systems. All of these would varying different types of seals. Interesting enough, each have their own elastistic properties and each affected by lubrication.

Now if the 131 for example had alcohol in it (which it doesn't) that would tend to dry out a seal of any nature, this is most common in fuel system treatments and does cause seals to dry and crack.

Another interesting little test I've done was to put the 131 in a white disposable coffee cup ,something that pb blaster would cut right through in just minutes, and let it sit for a week and it never even made a dent in it No leaks, no nothing. This tells me it is not a harsh chemical on that coffee cup, then it would not cause me problems with seals.

Not being the chemist, I rely on the experience that this company has and have found so far, they have been nothing less than supurb in making products that hold up to their claims.

So if a motor oil has these so called seal conditioners, I would have expected to see some kind of reaction to these seals as the valve stem seals are of a material used in motors, and as for the O rings, they too are used in the automotive industry, so there's a good chance it would have had simular reactions as I demonstrated in the measurments. Both the valve stem and the O ring seals had conditioned at about the same, .25mm with the neutra 131 whereas no motor oil did anything like that to either of them.

So in a nutshell, I don't believe that any of the full synth's have any amount of seal conditional ability. What they do have is the ability to maintain an already conditioned seal/engine, proven by the fact it was able to disperse more crude off the used valve stem seals in this case.
 
quote:

One thing I did notice (on the second part) was that the full synth's seemed to dissolve and
disperse the seal deposits into small particles whereas the Schaeffer's seemed to "break" it up into larger size granules. I would expect this of a concentrate vs. a synth.

Mola, I think the picture was kinda hard to really see the filtered particles so I went a step further by agitating the oil for 1 min each then pouring it into a coffee filter. Interesting thing is that the amsoil and mobil seemed to have a small haze where this was but actual filtered particles seem to be slightly bigger than what the neutra left. Not that this is a big deal as I'm sure there would be no problem for this to pass a pickup tube on an oil pump and make it to the oil filter.

Look at the bottom of the page for the additional photos.
 
Bob,

You're right.
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Upon closer inspection it looks like Neutra actually had finer particles.

It also appears that all fluids did a pretty good job of dispersion as well.

Dragboat,

I do not see any seal compatibility problems. As I stated before, I think the chemistry today is such that seal swell/compatibility is a no longer an issue with either synth's, or dinos, or blends.
 
I agree, They all did good.

As for seal compatiblilty, I think the biggest problem is where these esters/pao do all that cleaning and then the harden seal doesn't become plyable again resealing. Now with the dirt and grime gone acting like a seal, it starts to cause leaks after being cleaned more so with synth's than with the conventions with less cleaning abilities.
 
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