School me in engine oil

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If you read my posts, you'll find that's exactly what I've stated. M1 Vs cheapo FS don't tell you a single thing about what differentiates them on the bottle. Both bottles say what spec it meets, but that's about it. It says nothing about its make up. Only the price is double or more for M1. Without lab analysis, who's to say there's any difference at all?
The approvals, licenses and certifications tell you the differences, if any. What part of the “make up” are you expecting the manufacturer or blender to tell you?

Are you that guy that comes on every six months or so to complain that blenders and manufacturers are hiding someting?
 
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Where do I find this database?
 

Astro14

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Why does the oil HAVE to meet the manufacturer's recommended spec? What's wrong with using cheap oil? Just how much extra wear will it cause? Is it even quantifiable?

I've had the car for 4 years. It's only turned into a daily in the past year, and it's currently got 125k on it.

You yanks have it cheap af! There's no way I could find FS oil for £2 a quart! You're talking £10/litre for Castrol edge. Cheapest I can find 4l (it only comes in 1l and 4l)or is £35. I've never paid more than £20 for 5l of any oil. Even that's on the high side! I've always ran budget oil... As I said, oil is oil.
I picked up the quantum stuff from TPS for £60 for 20l a while back, and it's only just run out. I doubt it's that cheap anymore. There are however a few lesser known brands that are selling the correct specification oil for that price. One of those is a brand called mannol.

Bailes that's still quite on the high side. Is there a definite benefit to spending that sort of money on oil?
Why? Seriously?

Same reason tires need to meet a speed rating.

Products that fail to meet specifications…fail.

Tires come apart if they are taken above their speed specification. Oil fails to work if taken beyond the limits of its additive package.

If the oil is on the MB Bevo list, you know it will work as specified.

If the oil is not (your cheapo) then you don’t know if it will work.

If it doesn’t- you find out when the engine begins to fail.

Which is expensive on either side of the pond.

So…roll the bones with the cheapo?

Or pick something that you know works?
 

Astro14

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Instead of asking to be schooled, start reading. The entire front page of the site is filled with articles. Some examples.



 

hooblah

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If the oil is on the MB Bevo list, you know it will work as specified.

If the oil is not (your cheapo) then you don’t know if it will work.

If it doesn’t- you find out when the engine begins to fail.

Which is expensive on either side of the pond.

So…roll the bones with the cheapo?

Or pick something that you know works?

I understand where you're coming from, but equally that's just bollocks.

The cheapest oil will not cause engine failure. I've never heard of that. It will however cause failure when pushed beyond its limit. And that's not going to happen with a daily.

Astro, many thanks for the links. I'll do some reading.

From what I've read so far in this thread and from various others, it seems like a lot of you are anal about oil to the nth degree. There are bigger things to worry about. I'll get the cheapest FS oil available and call it a day. It's a daily, not a highly strung race engine.
 
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From what I've read so far in this thread and from various others, it seems like a lot of you are anal about oil to the nth degree. There are bigger things to worry about. I'll get the cheapest FS oil available and call it a day. It's a daily, not a highly strung race engine.
So we’re done here?
 
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I understand where you're coming from, but equally that's just bollocks.

The cheapest oil will not cause engine failure. I've never heard of that. It will however cause failure when pushed beyond its limit. And that's not going to happen with a daily.

Astro, many thanks for the links. I'll do some reading.

From what I've read so far in this thread and from various others, it seems like a lot of you are anal about oil to the nth degree. There are bigger things to worry about. I'll get the cheapest FS oil available and call it a day. It's a daily, not a highly strung race engine.

You came here predispositioned to 'oil is oil' and no matter what any of us told you here, you were going to buy the cheapest unapproved, unbranded oil you could find for your high performance V8. Your mind was made up so very confused why you even asked?

With an exception to a few boutique brands, more expensive oils that carry approvals will be an old round better product. They're likely to last longer, take abuse better and minimise deposits.

Have a search for some pictures of under valve covers of engines that have utilised M1 oils. They're spotless.
 

hooblah

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You came here predispositioned to 'oil is oil' and no matter what any of us told you here, you were going to buy the cheapest unapproved, unbranded oil you could find for your high performance V8. Your mind was made up so very confused why you even asked?

With an exception to a few boutique brands, more expensive oils that carry approvals will be an old round better product. They're likely to last longer, take abuse better and minimise deposits.

Have a search for some pictures of under valve covers of engines that have utilised M1 oils. They're spotless.
My predispositions haven't been proven by anyone to be incorrect. Not one person has claimed a particular oil has caused engine failure. Hence oil is oil (to an extent). I'm my case, I'm nowhere near to finding that extent.

I never said I was going to buy the cheapest, unapproved, unbranded oil. My words were the "cheapest FS oil available". As it happens, 20l of the cheapest FS I can find has the mb approval, along with others. No, it's not on mb's list, but that doesn't concern me. If it's fully synthetic it'll do the job. Unless someone can prove otherwise?
In my experience, if an engine in your average car has regular oil changes, it will last forever. Even if using the cheapest oil.
I've driven cars hard, punished them from cold during winter months. I've never suffered an engine failure. Engine failures I hear of aren't related to oil, or if they are, they are from mechanical breakdown that could not have been prevented by oil type or spec.

I wouldn't class this engine as being particularly 'high performance'. It doesn't warrant anything extravagant. I don't drive it particularly hard so additional protection is a moot point. As long as it offers adequate protection and lasts a minimum of 10k miles, that's all I care about. Paying double for a better product is a waste of money on a daily. Unless your daily has a highly strung engine, I think it's pedantic to obsess about oil.

So if you'd like to educate me and prove me wrong, I'm all ears. I do however require evidence, which no-one has been able to present so far.
 
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Just be aware of the difference between an "approved" oil and an oil that is "recommended for use in..." or "suitable for use in..." or "meets the requirements of..." etc.

Take MB229.5 for example. This is a specification document that defines what physical, chemical and performance properties an oil must meet in order to be certified as appropriate for use in the relevant Mercedes engines. It contains over 40 data points for lab testing and 9 separate engine tests, some with up to 20 individual parameters measured, rated and reported. The engine tests cover sludge formation, wear, fuel economy, aeration, LSPI and fuel-induced deposits. To run all of these tests to qualify an oil costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time, and there's no guarantee of hitting each one first time, so some tests will have to be repeated on reformulated candidates. Once you have a full suite of results that pass every required limit you apply to MB for an approval and, assuming they accept your data, they will officially record the oil as approved, send you a letter to prove it and put it on their BeVo database for everybody to see.

Some oil companies go through all this time and expense and get the letter. Some others don't - they will make a judgement based on testing they have carried out, or based on knowing what's in their oil and how it performs, and will effectively underwrite the specification themselves. The only people who know how the specification requirements relate to engine reliability, performance and durability are Mercedes and the only way to know that an oil meets MB's demands is to hold the official approval.

Once you start comparing oils that are on the BeVo list then you're into price, availability and perhaps any other performance benefits that the oil supplier may feature. One thing about specifications is that they often only give a maximum or minimum limit for a test result - this is like a high jump competition; if you clear the bar you pass, regardless of whether you just brush over it or whether you clear the bar by a good margin - you get no additional merit in terms of the approval if your result is a stellar one. However, the oil company will have the results to hand and may choose to call out any particularly good results such as "x times better wear" or whatever. It's up to you whether these additional factors are valuable to you.

And let's not forget, in many cases an oil has not only jumped the MB high jump bar, but also other bars from, say, VW and BMW - and in order to qualify for these high jump competitions at all you have to qualify at the ACEA prelims - another specification standard that underpins all of the European OEM specifications.

So, oil isn't oil - there is a lot that goes on in the formulation that differentiates one from another and defines which applications they are appropriate for - this is why there are so many products, even from the same supplier. Fundamentally there's an old adage - "any oil is better than no oil", so using the 'wrong' oil is (in most cases) unlikely to be catastrophic, although as emissions control systems become more complex and common, even this is not a given. But even if not catastrophic, the results may be incrementally worse.

The only way to be sure is to use the appropriately specified and approved oil. You may get away with it outside of that safe zone (and many have), but you're on your own. BITOG is a (largely US-focussed) forum where such experiences are shared.
 

Astro14

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The Mercedes forums are replete with examples of engines that have failed due to improper oil.

Weasley went into more detail than I have time for but the point is this: FS is a meaningless term.

It’s not the base stock source that determines how well an oil performs. Base stock is 75% of the oil by volume but it is the blend of components, and the performance of that blend, that determines if an oil meets the specifications of your engine manufacturer. Base stock is cheap. Additives are expensive chemistry. Most cheap oils cheap out on the additives. Most good oils use better additives.

Saying “I’ll use a FS oil” is like saying “I’ll get a car with an aluminum engine block”. Meaningless, unless you know how the rest of those components on the engine perform. FS talks only about the base, not about the important part of the oil - the additive package.

Only fools use products that don’t meet specification.

I have two Mercedes that are driven often.

They get an oil that meets MB 229.5.
 
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hooblah

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The mercedes forums are not replete with examples that have failed due to improper oil. If they are, prove it.

Every single fully synthetic oil I can find tells me it meets the mercedes specification 229.5. That's good enough for me. It may not be on Mercedes' approved oil list, but that requires companies to pay mercedes to advertise that. Mercedes isn't going to go out of its way to test oil and mark it as compliant for nothing. Naturally, these companies will recoup that cost from the consumer, and quite probably inflate the price in doing so.

I've compared manufacturer's data sheets between top oil and budget oil, the figures are not too different. As I said earlier, there's nothing on the oil packaging or manufacturer's website which states what additives they use. How am I to tell what's what without an in depth oil analysis? And I'm not going by the notion that expensive equals better. I need proof. Figures. Data.
 
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The mercedes forums are not replete with examples that have failed due to improper oil. If they are, prove it.

Every single fully synthetic oil I can find tells me it meets the mercedes specification 229.5. That's good enough for me. It may not be on Mercedes' approved oil list, but that requires companies to pay mercedes to advertise that. Mercedes isn't going to go out of its way to test oil and mark it as compliant for nothing. Naturally, these companies will recoup that cost from the consumer, and quite probably inflate the price in doing so.

I've compared manufacturer's data sheets between top oil and budget oil, the figures are not too different. As I said earlier, there's nothing on the oil packaging or manufacturer's website which states what additives they use. How am I to tell what's what without an in depth oil analysis? And I'm not going by the notion that expensive equals better. I need proof. Figures. Data.


So what are we supposed to school you on then?
 
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Which level of schooling are you requesting? There’s public schooling, private schooling, charter schooling, and inner city schooling. They all have different levels of factual information. We need this info in order to give you the correct presentation on motor oil 😁.
 
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you can deliberately fish at the bottom of the oil barrel and the thread starter’s low performance understressed indestructible engine will still be fine

unless he discloses exactly what cheap oil he uses there’s no point in continuing the discussion
 

Astro14

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The mercedes forums are not replete with examples that have failed due to improper oil. If they are, prove it.

Every single fully synthetic oil I can find tells me it meets the mercedes specification 229.5. That's good enough for me. It may not be on Mercedes' approved oil list, but that requires companies to pay mercedes to advertise that. Mercedes isn't going to go out of its way to test oil and mark it as compliant for nothing. Naturally, these companies will recoup that cost from the consumer, and quite probably inflate the price in doing so.

I've compared manufacturer's data sheets between top oil and budget oil, the figures are not too different. As I said earlier, there's nothing on the oil packaging or manufacturer's website which states what additives they use. How am I to tell what's what without an in depth oil analysis? And I'm not going by the notion that expensive equals better. I need proof. Figures. Data.
Since it appears you already had all the answers, there is no need for further “schooling”.

Neither is there a need for further trolling.
 
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