Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much?

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I was looking at getting my 1967 Camaro out of hibernation in another month or so. The car hasn't been driven much in the past 20 years due to changing priorities in life. With that being said I was looking at several different "high zddp" oils including: Lucas, Schaeffer, Brad Penn and Valvoline (not interested in RP & Amsoil, nor additives). My question isn't so much what brand, but rather how much zddp is too much. From what I can gather, when going over 2000ppm, issues can arise with bearing and corrosiveness; but both Lucas Hot Rod and Schaeffer # 709 have numbers pushing or above 2000ppm, whereas BP and Valvoline are 1100-1500. If above 2000ppm is bad, or at least pushing the envelope of bad, why do they offer it? Do their other additive packages combat the corrosiveness? I was planning on using BP, but then got thinking and started reading the 'net and it seemed that the Schaeffer might be a better oil. I am going to be buying Schaeffer's #158 compressor oil, so one thought to to tack their #709 onto the order, but I am nervous about using an oil that could eat my bearings....LOL Any insight to having zddp over 2000ppm right out of teh bottle and if it would/will do harm?
 

SR5

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Right now I'm using Penrite Vantage 10W40 with 1220 ppm zinc. Previously I have used, for many years on end, Penrite HPR30 with 1530 ppm zinc. This was the Aussie go-to performance oil back in the day, and may people used it for many years without issues. It's been around with that level of zinc for at least three decades. How much is too much is very open to debate. We were talking about it in this thread recently https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4622205/
 
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What kind/how hot an engine is in your car? If it's stock or calm I'd go with their regular 7000 10w30. I've had it in my '85 GMC 1-ton (flat-tappet 454) for over 30,000 mi. and it performs great. Schaeffer's oils are very tough so I think a lower ZDDP formulation from Schaeffer's might still outperform others.
 

bob15

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It's a fairly hot 327.....definitely not stock. The RPM band starts at 25000erpm. Engine has: 12.5:1 compression, big cam, big valves, roller rockers, 750 carter carb, etc. And yes, I do like banging gears with it.
 
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OK, it's carb'd so it'll be rich on cold start. When you say "big cam" who's and which lifters to go with it? Valve spring pressures if you have them? The deal is that you need to prime the carb (fill the float bowl through the vent) so you are not cranking and cranking to get it started, then bring it up to 2,300 or a bit more for 5 minutes. That'll sling oil the cam and lifters. It has a oil film, but it is very thin from sitting ... Depending on spring pressures and cam maker, you could go anywhere from 800 PPM ZDDP and really good base stocks, to 1,500 PPM ZDDP and specialty oils ... It's a small block Chevy, but being as it's a 327 it has a steel crank and very likely a good cam and Delphi or Johnson lifters. 327 stuff was mostly made before the deplorable "soft" cam phase that GM and the aftermarket went through frown My preferred oil for these sorts of situations is Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD (severe duty) with about 1,200 PPM ZDDP which is all you need for anything other than a full race drag or roundy-round engine. But, it seems to be getting harder to find and is getting pricey. Fall back oils for me and engines with big cams and heavy springs is John Deere Plus 50 III or Mystic JT8 which also have 1,200 PPM ZDDP and very stout base oils. Redline makes a wonderful oil for this sort of application, but at $12/qt it's pricey. Valvoline VR-1 (silver bottle) has been the go-to oil for the Chevy crowd for a long time. It also has the right ZDDP levels for almost any engine that will actually run on the street. Here's a link to an oil survey I ran over at Chevelles dot com: Survey These are some very stout engines. Some of these folks are in the 9's in all steel bodies with roll up windows. SO I know their engines are hitting the oil hard. Many, many threads there about oil and flat tappet cams ... Been up and down this road a few times. I'd run VR-1 and change it every 3,000 miles due to fuel dilution. Prolly xW-30 if you can't get the Chevron lube locally ... 1,200 PPM (+) is your target for ZDDP and really good base oil stocks. Dino or Syn does not matter. There is no proof that one actually lubes better than the other. And short oil changes mean the syn is not actually netting you any benefit ... I'd use dino as the residual oil film thickness is usually better. Run a two quart oil filter if it'll fit? Any NAPA store can look up and interchange for you. I'd run a NAPA Gold, but a Baldwin/Hastings will work well too smile
 
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bob15

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Isky .505 lift, Isky lifters & springs (I thought Isky was making them when this engine was built, though I could be wrong). Comp Cam roller rockers. TRW pop-up pistons, Sealed Power rings, Vandervell bearings, Fuelie heads, 2.02 SS valves. Don't remember the spring/valve pressure is (I built the engine in 1991....has 25-30k miles on the engine, but I just haven't driven the car much the past 20 years). I will be doing a seal job on it, as I need to pull the engine to change the bottom pan out, so it will be easy enough to do on an engine stand.
 
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Yeah i might get bashed for suggesting this. Delo sae 30 CF/SL but it works well in my friends built 350 with solid lifters and i use it in my old 302 with great results. chromium-0 nickel-0 aluminum-3 copper-0 lead-0 tin-0 cadmium-0 silver-0 vanadium-0 silicon-4 sodium-2 potassium-2 titanium-0 moly-103 antimony-1 mang-0 lithium-0 boron-146 magnesium-13 calcium-3297 barium-0 phos-1379 zinc-1647 Vis-11.5 TBN-10.1 Oxidation-8 Nitration-4
 
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Originally Posted By: bob15
Isky .505 lift, Isky lifters & springs (I thought Isky was making them when this engine was built, though I could be wrong). Comp Cam roller rockers. TRW pop-up pistons, Sealed Power rings, Vandervell bearings, Fuelie heads, 2.02 SS valves. Don't remember the spring/valve pressure is (I built the engine in 1991....has 25-30k miles on the engine, but I just haven't driven the car much the past 20 years). I will be doing a seal job on it, as I need to pull the engine to change the bottom pan out, so it will be easy enough to do on an engine stand.
That's the perfect set-up for Valvoline VR-1. Isky stuff was never known for cam/lifter failures, so I would not be overly concerned. Those are usually very reliable parts and will run well with any modern oil over 1,000 PPM of ZDDP and good solid base oils. You have many oils to choose from smile
 
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bob15

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When I started this thread, I also wrote to Schaeffer and asked what they recommended. Besides their recommendation they sent me a decent bulletin, but I cannot figure out how to post it due to being a PDF file. Anyone know how to load a PDF on this site?
 

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Originally Posted By: jakewells
Delo sae 30 CF/SL but it works well in my friends built 350 with solid lifters and i use it in my old 302 with great results. moly-103 boron-146 magnesium-13 calcium-3297 phos-1379 zinc-1647 Vis-11.5 TBN-10.1
There is a lot of good to be said for a modern SAE 30 monograde if you are operating above freezing. That Delo would be a Group II, so much better cold climate performance and oxidation stability, compared to the old school Group I monogrades. High TBN, High ZDDP, lots of Moly & Boron....a excellent modern add package. Being Group II it would probably test out to be a 15W-30 or 20W-30, but completely shear stable and with very low Noack volatility (6 to 7% at a guess). I think modern monogrades with a modern add package, are excellent and under appreciated oils with a lot to offer, in the right climate.
 

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Sorry for this style download, but I couldn't get the PDF onto a filmstrip for easier reading.
 

SR5

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That Schaeffers' article is a great read and I agree with most of what they say. Thanks for posting it. There is one obvious error, more a typo to do with scale, which is easy to make if you don't work at the nano-scale regularly. They say "Molybdenum Disulfide Crystal being 0.000000001 microns thick". Now that is 1x10E-9 microns, and given that 1 micron = 1x10E-6 meters (m) then they are saying the crystal (made of multiple atoms) is 1x10E-15 m thick. But, a typical atom is about 0.1nm or 1x10E-10m in size (that's 1 Angstrom - let's bring this natural unit of measure back). For example a Si atom diameter is 0.2nm. So they are saying this multi-atomic crystal is 100,000x smaller than a single atom !! No Way !!! I think they mean the crystal is 0.000000001 meters thick, being 0.001 microns or 1nm or about 10 atoms thick. Which is still very very small. BTW that should be Molybdenum Disulphide Crystal in the Queen's English.
 

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Penrite uses 1530 ppm (0.153%) zinc in their HPR30. Chevron Delo has 1647 ppm in the HD monograde. Chevron Delo 400LE 15W40 has 1519 ppm zinc. Mobil Delvac has 1297 ppm in their 1300 Super 15W40. Shell Rotella T 15W40 has 1454 ppm zinc. Sure some of the new CK formulas have reduced their zinc levels (only some - Rotella is still strong here). But I think it's safe to say that 1400 to 1600 ppm zinc is completely safe, otherwise all the engineers and chemists at Shell / Chevron / Penrite are not doing their job. There are other oils, such as MPT motorcycle oil which has 2500 ppm zinc. Also Mobil 1 V-Twin has 1750 ppm zinc. I honestly think these higher levels are fine too, otherwise issue would be found and the product withdrawn. Certainly the Mobil V-Twin has been around for years. I just think the law of diminishing returns (and economics) comes into play, as in more and more zinc gives less and less help, so at a certain level it's just not worth adding more.
 
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