Saab 900T - high metals damage - how bad is this?

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LM

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OCI and oil type unknown. 4 cyl 2.0L turbo 110K miles. Rough range guesses on how many miles this engine might be drivable? The high (29-35) mpg seems a bit surprising? Also possibly a HG problem. Thank you.

1st number data / 2d avg

ALUMINUM 16 3
CHROMIUM 7 1
IRON 137 23
COPPER 58 4
LEAD 47 7
TIN 4 1
MOLYBDENUM 38 53
NICKEL 4 0
MANGANESE 3 4
SILVER 0 0
TITANIUM 0 0
POTASSIUM 10 1
BORON 19 62
SILICON 25 8
SODIUM 194 12
CALCIUM 2109 2351
MAGNESIUM 35 115
PHOSPHORUS 728 799
ZINC 931 922
BARIUM 0 0

Properties normal except antifreeze 0.39 / 0.0

BLACKSTONE COMMENTS:
Wear metals were high enough to suspect the engine did suffer some damage from the low oil level. Bearing wear was the worst (see copper and lead), though aluminum and chrome don't look good either and we think this shows a ring problem, especially since you noted the low compression. Iron is from cylinders, rotating shafts, and other steel parts. Universal averages show normal wear from this type of engine after 5,500 miles use on the oil. Sodium and potassium may show anti-freeze. The TBN was okay at 2.3, so we don't think this oil was run long.
 
I say a long time. What performance it will give is up for grabs ..but qualifying as "functional" ...a good bit I'd suspect.
 
Those copper/lead numbers are high, but it doesn't look like the bearing was exactly ground to dust.

The head gasket is definitely a problem... but on the upside, you may simultaneously fix the coolant leak and the compression loss. Since you know there's an HG problem, I don't think you can conclude that the rings are damaged just because one cylinder has low compression numbers.
 
One problem, of many(!), is the OCI is unknown. So still a vague reference point for the metals, etc.

Have been looking for other possible whats, besides a bad HG, that can cause elevated Na and K. Have found thread sealant, for Na, so far.

Another UOA would clear things up, if my friend holds on to the car.
 
Blackstone indicated that the oil contained antifreeze. There's coolant in the oil and there's not too many ways that can happen. You're almost certainly looking at a bad headgasket.

In any event, I don't think I'd give up on this engine just yet. But the UOA numbers are going to keep coming back ugly until that coolant leak is fixed.
 
Yeah, you should have your friend take that car to a saab specialist and have them diagnose it. More than likely it is the head gasket. Turbo Saabs seemed to have trouble with head gasket integrity until just recently. You/your buddy could also post the particulars on saabnet or saabcentral and see what other saab owners think.
 
quote:

Originally posted by LargeCarMan:
Your not even at abnormal so you will be fine. Keep that oil level up and keep the OCI's a....going.

I have to completely disagree with this statement. Iron is extraordinarily high, copper and aluminum are at warning levels, and the presence of antifreeze is never a good thing. Down in the motorcycle UOA section we saw a post with lead in the 40's and copper in the 60's, and when the engine was torn down it showed a failed rod bearing. Wear metal numbers in the 40's or higher are bad, unless there is another more plausible explanation (oil cooler, leaded gas, etc.)
I agree with other people that replacing the head gasket (and checking the head and block for warpage) should be a top priority. If you do that, this motor might live for a very long time.
 
Some similarities if this is the one

motorcycle UOA

and interesting to note that, up until the end, the Magna was also running strong

No local saab specialist, but think have found a quality import shop. Just replaced both block freeze blocks (another two untouched in the head). Lower plug was leaking, inside fairly crudded up, but not horrible - uppper plug (~2" higher) not as bad - but have no ref for comparison. Yes - both saabnet and saabcentral exclt resources, but BITOG offers a different perspective.

Will probably have a block test done and/or a leak-down test.

I'm still fuzzy, and perhaps only time or a tear-down would tell, but let's say/agree the HG is indeed leaking. Replacing it/decking the head, etc - remove the coolant from the oil...

the iron and lead are coming from the bottom end, yes (which are exceptionally strong on these engines - I guess like many)? So the bearings, journals are already worn/rough (how worn unknown?)... so at a minimum, there's still going to be linear or exponential future wear...? Seems like better to rebuild or put in another engine, or sell, vs a new HG? There's lots of other DIY work to be done yet, too, but don't mind that challenge so much
 
I just read TS's last post on the cycle UOA - will cut open the oil filter after XXX miles? Coming up on 200 miles recent change. Nothing added. Did run some water into the intake. And will also likely run some GM TEC.
 
sorry for the multiple posts... the wear metal numbers - they will never drop lower than the initial post, unless coolant was the primary cause?
 
BLACKSTONE COMMENTS:

Universal averages show normal wear from this type of engine after 5,500 miles use on the oil. Sodium and potassium may show anti-freeze. The TBN was okay at 2.3, so we don't think this oil was run long.

Oil Analyzers guidelines:

Iron: Normal 5/25 Abnormal 350 Excessive 500
Copper: Normal 5/30 Abnormal 100 Excessive 300
Lead: Normal 30 Abnormal 70 Excessive 150

nicrfe 1370 these numbers and comments are from 2 very good analyzers....can you tell me why you think LM's numbers are a sign of excessive wear? I truly believe that this engine will go a long, long time before it gives up the ghost.
 
hope that's the case! the TBN of 2.3 - not wholly depleted but seems to be at the low-end. don't understand Blackstone's comment - seems like the PO oil was run for a fair amount of miles? or do i have that backwards, like the saab engine ;-)?
 
quote:

Originally posted by LargeCarMan:
BLACKSTONE COMMENTS:

Universal averages show normal wear from this type of engine after 5,500 miles use on the oil. Sodium and potassium may show anti-freeze. The TBN was okay at 2.3, so we don't think this oil was run long.

Oil Analyzers guidelines:

Iron: Normal 5/25 Abnormal 350 Excessive 500
Copper: Normal 5/30 Abnormal 100 Excessive 300
Lead: Normal 30 Abnormal 70 Excessive 150

nicrfe 1370 these numbers and comments are from 2 very good analyzers....can you tell me why you think LM's numbers are a sign of excessive wear? I truly believe that this engine will go a long, long time before it gives up the ghost.


I think one of us misread the original post. The "Universal Averages" column shows what wear numbers should be, the first column showed actual wear. Even Blackstone said "Wear metals were high enough to suspect the engine did suffer some damage from the low oil level." If 58 ppm was an acceptable number for lead, he would have had to drive 79750 miles on this oil. Since Blackstone said the TBN was good, we know the oil isn't almost 80000 miles old.
I've seen the same numbers from OAI that you saw, and they apply to heavy duty diesel motors, not light duty gasoline.
 
Quote from nicrfe1370:

I've seen the same numbers from OAI that you saw, and they apply to heavy duty diesel motors, not light duty gasoline.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The diesel numbers for iron are 10/40 100 300

The gas numbers for iron are 5/25 350 500

Did you read it wrong
dunno.gif
 
I don't think I've ever seen a UOA with an iron number greater than 50 unless a transmission was involved.

Since lead is high without being astronomical, anyone else think most of this is coming from the cams and rockers ... and NOT the bottom-end?

--- Bror Jace
 
LargeCarMan, I thought that too.

What are the turbo bearings made of?

Are they steel rollers in a steel housing?

--- Bror Jace
 
I am not sure, but the analysis guide states that iron and aluminum could be from turbochargers. If you read his other post he speaks about a turbo smell and the boost being off. Alot of times coking of oil in the bearings make the turbos go out fairly quick.
 
still with this thread. might pull VC. turbo rebuild or new one is possible. would be great if the bottom end is largely intact - but doesn't seem clear right now. will likely also do another UOA. will post more as info comes available. thanks for the comments
 
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