Does anybody run one fuel for their 4-stroke and 2-stroke equipment? I’ve run plenty of Amsoil 100:1 (mixed around 60-80:1) through my 4-strokes with no apparent ill effect. Is there any particular problem with this? I really like the idea of only having one tank of gas to deal with.
Running 2-stroke gas in all equipment
- Thread starter darrenc
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Darren,
I've been doing the exact same thing for about ten years, only I do mix @ 100:1. The ester basestock seems to keep the carbs nice and clean and I figure having some oil in there prevents corrosion in the off season. It doesn't seem to have any effect on spark plug deposits, as I'm sure you've noticed.
My original goal was to provide some additional upper cylinder lubrication, but I'm not convinced there is such a thing ...
I've been doing the exact same thing for about ten years, only I do mix @ 100:1. The ester basestock seems to keep the carbs nice and clean and I figure having some oil in there prevents corrosion in the off season. It doesn't seem to have any effect on spark plug deposits, as I'm sure you've noticed.
My original goal was to provide some additional upper cylinder lubrication, but I'm not convinced there is such a thing ...
A local oudoor power equipment place(now closed, owners retired) used to run mixed gas in everything, 2-stroke and 4-stroke. I don't know the exact ratio they used, but they used nothing but 2-cycle-mixed super unleaded. I'd guess the Amsoil at 60:1 or less would work well in the 4-cycle stuff.
Thanks Stewart/Ted.
Darren
Darren
"What about the long lecture that we were supposed to use 32:1 in order to get the best performance/protection?"
First of all we go through close to 100 gallons of oil per season. Second of all we spin off the motors after 2-3 years. I could care less how long they last. In my personal marine motors I will run 50:1 if I'm going to be trolling alot or am not running more than a few miles. If the trips are longer or under heavy load( think boat full of people) I will use more oil. That said boat motors have almost nothing in common with any other type of two cycle. They have large displacement per output, superbly cooled motors that run at low rpm. 50:1 works good in a scenario like this. FWIW I think alot of the deposit problems you see in the DI outboards are related to lean oil injection ratios.
[ October 30, 2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: blano ]
First of all we go through close to 100 gallons of oil per season. Second of all we spin off the motors after 2-3 years. I could care less how long they last. In my personal marine motors I will run 50:1 if I'm going to be trolling alot or am not running more than a few miles. If the trips are longer or under heavy load( think boat full of people) I will use more oil. That said boat motors have almost nothing in common with any other type of two cycle. They have large displacement per output, superbly cooled motors that run at low rpm. 50:1 works good in a scenario like this. FWIW I think alot of the deposit problems you see in the DI outboards are related to lean oil injection ratios.
[ October 30, 2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: blano ]
Oil mix ratio's are not really a hot topic with outboard enthusiasts. The 50:1 ratio for TCW3 pre-mix has been a standard since the 60's.
The boaters probably spend more time debating the best way to shut down the oil injector systems on the older engines. The theory is using hand mix is more reliable than running the risk of an injector pump failure.
The debates are "more spirited" with air cooled engines in part due to the ratio changes from 32:1 to 40:1 to 50:1 over the last 15+ years. And Amsoil muddies the waters with it's 100:1 ratio and inferring that less oil is better.
The boaters probably spend more time debating the best way to shut down the oil injector systems on the older engines. The theory is using hand mix is more reliable than running the risk of an injector pump failure.
The debates are "more spirited" with air cooled engines in part due to the ratio changes from 32:1 to 40:1 to 50:1 over the last 15+ years. And Amsoil muddies the waters with it's 100:1 ratio and inferring that less oil is better.
I have always liked the idea of using a small quantity of 2 stroke oil in 4 stroke gas. I am not sure the 2 stroke formulation is ideal for lubricating valves though. 100 to 1 seems very safe if you want to try it.
Keep in mind that many auto fuels have some lubricant. Shell now claims that the fuels they sell give better fuel economy. They have added a lubricant, and this is the only reason for the claim (as far as I know).
Chris
Keep in mind that many auto fuels have some lubricant. Shell now claims that the fuels they sell give better fuel economy. They have added a lubricant, and this is the only reason for the claim (as far as I know).
Chris
Oil ratios seem to be tied to RPM.
The 20,000 rpm GP bikes and karts need 16:1, 12,000 RPM 85cc dirt bikes, 28:1, 250CC MX bikes can get away with 36:1 and so on.
A 5,500 RPM water cooled outboard, oil injected likely varies the ratio depending on engine speed and load from 40:1 to 100:1.
Blano has to deal with several different applications, tourists, and the odd northern Ontario UFO, quite common in his area.
The 20,000 rpm GP bikes and karts need 16:1, 12,000 RPM 85cc dirt bikes, 28:1, 250CC MX bikes can get away with 36:1 and so on.
A 5,500 RPM water cooled outboard, oil injected likely varies the ratio depending on engine speed and load from 40:1 to 100:1.
Blano has to deal with several different applications, tourists, and the odd northern Ontario UFO, quite common in his area.
User,
Good point! A 125cc size engine could be run in each of these classes & would require a different ratio depending on the application RPM.
Road Racing (Very High RPM) 16:1 - 20:1
MX Bike (High RPM) 24:1 - 32:1
Trials Bike (Moderate RPM) 40:1 - 50:1
Higher RPM's generate more heat and a different set of requirements for lubrication & ring seal.
Good point! A 125cc size engine could be run in each of these classes & would require a different ratio depending on the application RPM.
Road Racing (Very High RPM) 16:1 - 20:1
MX Bike (High RPM) 24:1 - 32:1
Trials Bike (Moderate RPM) 40:1 - 50:1
Higher RPM's generate more heat and a different set of requirements for lubrication & ring seal.
Oil ratio is set by rpm/load pure and simple, not some pinhead moron at the EPA. Also cooling system type comes into play. With these things in mind its assinine to have a small bore, air cooled, high rpm motor like chainsaw or trimmer running on a 100:1 ratio or even 50:1 for that matter.
FWIW on the subject of running mixed gas in four cycle. since we do this we also add a bottle of combustion chamber cleaner to each 4 stroke motor once per year to clean up the depoits. I cant recall the name of the stuff, but we get it at Canadian tire.
FWIW on the subject of running mixed gas in four cycle. since we do this we also add a bottle of combustion chamber cleaner to each 4 stroke motor once per year to clean up the depoits. I cant recall the name of the stuff, but we get it at Canadian tire.
I'm sure what people are trying to do is provide some top cylinder lubrication, but it's going to end up causing more problems than it solves IMO. It's even worse with these fat mixtures a lot of people seem to think are needed in their premix.
Even the best 2 cycle lubricants leave something behind. That something ends up making sticky rings and carbon deposits that sure won't help a 4 cycle in the long run. They don't help a 2 cycle either but it's part of the game when you carry your lube in with your fuel...
[ November 10, 2003, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: jsharp ]
Mola,
I'm just trying to minimize two gas cans. That's all. If doing so is bad for the 4-strokes then I won't do this, if it is neutral, then I will. If there is a benifit to the 4-stroke, then that's gravy.
I'm just trying to minimize two gas cans. That's all. If doing so is bad for the 4-strokes then I won't do this, if it is neutral, then I will. If there is a benifit to the 4-stroke, then that's gravy.
How many 2 strokes have been destroyed by grabbing the wrong can? If a little oil doesn't hurt the 4 strokes, and none at all kills 2 strokes, the oil you "waste" in the 4 strokes is cheap insurance. This is particularly true if you are using low paid help. Just make sure the only gas can did get oil in it.
Jsharp, I bet my two cycle motors are as clean or cleaner internaly than comparable four cycle motors. Provided you use good oil and tune the carb properly two cycle internals stay clean. BTW two cycle motors run cleaner on more oil. The more oil going through the motor, the more detergants and dispersants that are cleaning up deposits.
MolaKule
Staff member
My experience with Poulan 2-cycle engines is that if you run them at less than a 40:1 ratio, they will sieze up on a hot day, even with the best ester-based synthetic oils. 3.2 oz./gallon is about right for these engines.
Just to ask a question: What are you guys trying to accomplish with running 2C oil in a four-stroke?
Just to ask a question: What are you guys trying to accomplish with running 2C oil in a four-stroke?
In taking dozens of 2 and 4 stroke motorcycle engines apart I've not found any 2 stokes that were cleaner. I will say I've had few that were about as clean tho.
I've not found these rich oil mixtures to be any cleaner either when using a variety or oils from Belray, Klotz, Union Carbide, etc. and when used with proper jetting.
Remember, when you use premix an oil-rich oil/fuel ratio gives you less fuel for a given volume and has the effect of running a leaner mixture. To compare, you'll need to rejet to get the air/fuel ratio back to the same value....
"you'll need to rejet to get the air/fuel ratio back to the same value.... "
Of course you do, but the differance is very slight and most times is not noticable. i can tell yuo for certain I have seen bike and sled engines that where ran on several differant oils that where cleaner internal than a four stroke. They where not any of the barnds you mentioned.
"At the risk of getting flamed, what about the extra pollution from burning oil in a 4-stroke that doesn't need oil in the gas?"
A little two cycle oil isnt going to have any effect on emmisions at all. Unburnt hydrocarbons are unburnt hydrocarbons wether they are composed of gasoline or two cycle oil. Besides cars today burn very hot and will combust any oil present. What HC are not burnt get combusted by the cat con.
Of course you do, but the differance is very slight and most times is not noticable. i can tell yuo for certain I have seen bike and sled engines that where ran on several differant oils that where cleaner internal than a four stroke. They where not any of the barnds you mentioned.
"At the risk of getting flamed, what about the extra pollution from burning oil in a 4-stroke that doesn't need oil in the gas?"
A little two cycle oil isnt going to have any effect on emmisions at all. Unburnt hydrocarbons are unburnt hydrocarbons wether they are composed of gasoline or two cycle oil. Besides cars today burn very hot and will combust any oil present. What HC are not burnt get combusted by the cat con.
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