Royal Purple

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
But that is why I cited Honda's test as an example. When that test came out, there was only one oil on the market that met it (M1 5w30). That list contained only two oils for a very long time: Mobil 1 5w30 and Pennzoil Platinum 5w30.

In this case, getting the approval appears to be difficult. So, are we then to just take the word of the blender that their oil is "recommended for" an HTO-06 spec application because they say so, without the actual Honda approval on the bottle?


You are not talking about the same thing I am. I am talking quality of oil not claims vs licensing. I am simply saying being licensed does not make an oil superior to one that isn't. Too many people say because an oil does not have that license it is inferior to one with it and IMO that is bull.

If the non licensed oil meets or exceeds the spec is the only thing that will determine it's quality. If an oil without a license or factory approval meets or exceeds that Honda oil spec then it is every bit as good or even better than other oils that are licensed. It comes down to the spec requirements and how the oil tests against them NOT the actual license. The license just makes it easier for people to get an oil they need but it means nothing as far as quality vs other brands.

To your point about trust.

To me if an oil company with a known reputation and history like RP, Redline, Valvoline, Pennzoil, M1, QS, etc... say their product meets or exceeds a spec I will believe them yes. They are asking for a law suit to claim it does when it doesn't. So if a well known and respected oil company claims to meets/exceed a spec I do tend to believe it until such time it is shown not to. Also, let's not forget that oil companies have ahd licenses revoked for failing to meet them in random tests following getting licensed. So actually getting licensed only means on the day of the test the oil met the spec.

You certainly can feel otherwise.

I will add this though. If a company with a known bad reputation, and that is also known for making false claims, says a product meets or exceeds a certain spec I tend not to believe it 100%. I have one company that falls into that category based on years of seeing them lie and twist the truth. That company actually needs 3rd party certification like API for me to believe them as I have seen them lie before too many times. And I am talking about specific ratings and certifications not marketing [censored].

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
NHHEMI - In the "other" thread on Royal Purple I took the time to offer some commenst - here they are again - concerning "Official" aspects of lubricants

STARTS
NHHemi - The requirement to be "Licensed or Registered" via API or ACEA and to obtain a component Manufacturer's Approval may be but should not be confused with a Manufacturer's Official endorsement. As well, being a Facory Fill is indeed a combination of a number of these protocols!

An Oil Company (or lubricant Blender) has the opportunity to become "Licenced or Registered" via API or ACEA. They can opt in or out! In some cases this is purely a Commercial decision (intended Market, volumes, domestic/international availability and etc)
The testing can be done "in-house" or at Independent Labs that carry out such testing under the QA processes required. Yes, this is costly - again just part of a Commercial decision!

In the case of ACEA they work closely with the Manufacturers in the constant development of the tests and in their future Technical developments. Past experience plays a role - take the evolvement of ACEA's sludge test unit from the Daimler M111 to the M271 engine. The same with VW test components too along with emerging emmission requirements

IMO from around 1990 ACEA forced the API to reappraise the way it carried out its product testing. This especially applied to HDEOs after many disastrous lubricant related events with NA heavy high speed diesel engines during the 1980s! Engine Manufacturers also sought greater input for more desirable outcomes in the real World!

Oil Companies (or Blenders) can seek a Manufacturer's Approval and be Listed accordingly. This can also be done via Independent Labs. Again this may be a Commercial decision alone based on the potential Market! Manufacturer's Approvals may be based on the API and or ACEA protocols and some of their own as well. This will come from in-house Warranty/Field test experiences

MB and Porsche's Approval Lists cover hundreds of lubricants around the World. All will perform at acceptable levels - no expensive non approved Boutique lubricant will do any better!

Being a Manufacturer's FF firstly requires the Manufacturer's Approval. Then of course it will be a Commercial transaction between the parties - this will relate to supply as well as price. It is very unlikely that there will be only one FF supplier - most Manufacturers always cover their supply chain by using a number of suppliers or sources! Typically the products are constantly tested for quality at the "Factory gate"

In my experience over many years I can attest to the fact that Oil Companies work very closely with Manufacturers long before product release time and long afterwards too. Many have resident Engineers at the Manufacturer's Technical sites. They work very very closely with the Manutactuer's and Component suppliers Development and Production Engineers

A Manufacturer's endorsement typically comes from such Engineering activities which involve extensive Field Tests. Such tests will likely include third party engine development programmes and perhaps racing and destruction type durability testing

There are many great products around from Oil Companies and Blenders that do not have the official API, ACEA or Manufacturer "endorsements". We as consumers simply have no "flat field" of comparison in these situations

The Oil Companies (mainly Blenders) that variously use the API, ACEA and Manufacturer's nomenclature without actually going through the official processes should surely raise questions in ones mind as to why?

IME it has always proven best to stay with those products from any Oil Company or Blender that has official credibility!

ENDS

NHHEMI - I have no knowledge of Royal Purple lubricants. I have some knowledge of Manufacturer and Oil Company Testing and Manufacturer Approval processes. As a Senior Engineer in Stuttgart stated to me a year or so ago (not in his actual words) "...why would anyone spend a lot of money on expensive lubricants when any of those on our Approval Lists will do at least the same job or better"! And this is my experience too!

Any Oil Company or Blender that does not appear on ANY Manufacturer Approval Lists but states "Meets" or Exceeds" and does not carry API or ACEA raises a question or two

This may be due to their "Marketing" strategy for the product(s)and their intended place in Consumer land. It simply leaves aside millions of miles of Testing and the likes and for the consumer to simply trust...........

There is no magic lubricant!

 

[NHHEMI]

DH - I read what you wrote. I just don't agree with all of it and it was too long to break down point by point. I am TRYING to make shorter posts these days.

Just FYI - RP does and has for as long as I have used it carried API certification on at least some of their oils. They recently reformulated some of the more popular weights to the most current API service level( SN )and they carry the Starburst as well. They have some SM oils in less popular weights( actually weights like 0W-40 are becoming more popular but I hope you know whhat I mean )as well as some older SJ/SL oils too.

RP does not submit to any mfg for licensing however and I have been told it is due to what that costs. Under US law OE certification is not required either just meet/exceed. So RP oils carry no mfg licenses/approvals but their street oils all carry API certification. It isn't like RP offers nothing to hang your hat on. They got their street oils API certified and most of them to the most current API standards. That shows some level of quality.

You are entitled to your opinion so use what makes you comfortable. I will do the same. I personally jjust do not feel that OE licenses/certs/approvals are the huge deal others do. I don't think it mean anything more than you know it meets such and such a spec. If another oil brand meets/exceeds the same spec but isn't licensed I don't see how the license makes it better the way some here seem to think? The only argument I can see is do you trust the test data from the non licensed brand.

Again, to each his own.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
DH - I read what you wrote. I just don't agree with all of it and it was too long to break down point by point. I am TRYING to make shorter posts these days.

Just FYI - RP does and has for as long as I have used it carried API certification on at least some of their oils. They recently reformulated some of the more popular weights to the most current API service level( SN )and they carry the Starburst as well. They have some SM oils in less popular weights( actually weights like 0W-40 are becoming more popular but I hope you know whhat I mean )as well as some older SJ/SL oils too.

RP does not submit to any mfg for licensing however and I have been told it is due to what that costs. Under US law OE certification is not required either just meet/exceed. So RP oils carry no mfg licenses/approvals but their street oils all carry API certification. It isn't like RP offers nothing to hang your hat on. They got their street oils API certified and most of them to the most current API standards. That shows some level of quality.

You are entitled to your opinion so use what makes you comfortable. I will do the same. I personally jjust do not feel that OE licenses/certs/approvals are the huge deal others do. I don't think it mean anything more than you know it meets such and such a spec. If another oil brand meets/exceeds the same spec but isn't licensed I don't see how the license makes it better the way some here seem to think? The only argument I can see is do you trust the test data from the non licensed brand.

Again, to each his own.


I thought they were Dexos licensed on the new oil(s)? Which of course would be a manufacturer approval.........

 

[Spawne32]

The only reason RP changed their off the shelf lineup to the API SN certification is because of growing pressure fro the gov and car manufacturers to conform to the new EPA standards. An off the shelf oil that is only rated SL on a car in 2011-2012 that is under a factory warranty presents numerous problems for a consumer looking to get dealer warranty work done when they ask the question what oil you are using.

Anyone using the argument about not seeing RP in racing is just grasping at [censored] to make an argument against RP. Royal purple sponsors a ridiculous amount of race cars, from drag cars, funny cars, off road racers, etc. There is no special formula that is different from what the consumer can buy for these cars either, the XPR lineup is as good as it gets and its more then enough for these "race" cars. So i dont see how anyone can make that claim that it is inferior based on who they sponsor.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Spawne32
The only reason RP changed their off the shelf lineup to the API SN certification is because of growing pressure fro the gov and car manufacturers to conform to the new EPA standards. An off the shelf oil that is only rated SL on a car in 2011-2012 that is under a factory warranty presents numerous problems for a consumer looking to get dealer warranty work done when they ask the question what oil you are using.


Would this not also be why they are now Dexos approved as well?


Quote:
Anyone using the argument about not seeing RP in racing is just grasping at [censored] to make an argument against RP. Royal purple sponsors a ridiculous amount of race cars, from drag cars, funny cars, off road racers, etc. There is no special formula that is different from what the consumer can buy for these cars either, the XPR lineup is as good as it gets and its more then enough for these "race" cars. So i dont see how anyone can make that claim that it is inferior based on who they sponsor.


Interesting. So it is OK for you to call Mobil 1 garbage and say that it doesn't hold up. And for you to criticize and belittle their product offerings. But when somebody (in this case, myself) makes mention of the success of Mobil 1 in high dollar endurance races such as LeMans and Daytona and by companies as high profile as Mercedes and Porsche, I'm grasping at straws? Why the double standard?

My reply wasn't to belittle or berate Royal Purple. It was to show that Mobil (who you had already berated heavily) has had great success in various racing venues with their "garbage oil" as you would call it. And to borrow your line "there is no special formula that is different from what the consumer can buy for these cars either", they are running the same Mobil 1 0w40 you can buy at Walmart.

The one claiming inferiority was yourself. You know, it is quite possible to say that one product is good, without dragging their competition through the mud.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Spawne32
mobil 1 is a sponsor of the formula 1 cars, you really think they are using off the shelf grade oil in a 19,000rpm formula 1 race motor that holds those rpm's for extended periods of time? I dont think so lol probably the most absurd thing ive ever heard.


Where did I say they were using an off the shelf grade in Formula one? Perhaps that's the most absurd thing you assumed?

Their 0w40 is a popular oil in the 24hrs of LeMans however. The same oil you can buy at Walmart.


Also off the shelf M1 5-30 is used in a number of the American La Mans series cars. Johnny has seen them use it at the Daytona 24 hr. race and ask the crew why do you use it? There answer, because it works.

 

[Unleashedbeast]

Another reason why some true synthetic formulations are not API certified is because the API does not allow base stock interchange for true synthetic lubricants, as they do for petroleum base lubricants. It's almost as if the API promotes the use and sale of petroleum base stocks, but hinders the profit potential of true synthetics.

Quote:
Is there any flexibility in manufacturing an API licensed formula?

API licensing was originally developed for mineral-based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils.

Conventional oils comprised of petroleum base stocks may use a simple program called base stock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum base stocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, synthetic base stocks are supplier specific and base stock interchange is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester base stock from a specific supplier then only that supplier’s ester can be used. Complete engine testing would be required to use that exact same ester from another supplier and is therefore not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes price negotiations with synthetic base stock suppliers very difficult and it increases business risk. Supply disruptions from only one source could shut down production.

There is also something called viscosity grade read-across. Fortunately, this applies to both petroleum and synthetic base stocks, although the better cold temperature performance of synthetics makes it more difficult to achieve in some situations. The read-across guidelines ensure that if a manufacturer properly formulates the lubricant for which all of the API tests have been performed, then the manufacturer may use that same basic formula to make more grades (i.e. 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc.) of the same motor oil.

Finally, there is a rule for substitutions in the CMA (Chemical Manufacturers Association) code of practice that allows a small degree of flexibility for all formulas. It allows a company to make changes of certain components in the formula with limited testing and paperwork requirements, provided that the additives are at the same or higher concentration.


Quote:
So why doesn’t AMSOIL license all of its synthetic motor oils?

If all AMSOIL motor oils were API licensed, the company could not source new raw materials from multiple suppliers, which would greatly increase the threat of supply disruption and the likelihood of extraordinarily high prices. To solve this problem, the API must establish base stock interchange guidelines for synthetic base stocks just as they have for other base stocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.


All Amsoil OE and XL lubricants are API SN and GF-5 certified. Amsoil OE 5W-30 is also Dexos 1 certified.

 

[Spawne32]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Spawne32
The only reason RP changed their off the shelf lineup to the API SN certification is because of growing pressure fro the gov and car manufacturers to conform to the new EPA standards. An off the shelf oil that is only rated SL on a car in 2011-2012 that is under a factory warranty presents numerous problems for a consumer looking to get dealer warranty work done when they ask the question what oil you are using.


Would this not also be why they are now Dexos approved as well?


Quote:
Anyone using the argument about not seeing RP in racing is just grasping at [censored] to make an argument against RP. Royal purple sponsors a ridiculous amount of race cars, from drag cars, funny cars, off road racers, etc. There is no special formula that is different from what the consumer can buy for these cars either, the XPR lineup is as good as it gets and its more then enough for these "race" cars. So i dont see how anyone can make that claim that it is inferior based on who they sponsor.


Interesting. So it is OK for you to call Mobil 1 garbage and say that it doesn't hold up. And for you to criticize and belittle their product offerings. But when somebody (in this case, myself) makes mention of the success of Mobil 1 in high dollar endurance races such as LeMans and Daytona and by companies as high profile as Mercedes and Porsche, I'm grasping at straws? Why the double standard?

My reply wasn't to belittle or berate Royal Purple. It was to show that Mobil (who you had already berated heavily) has had great success in various racing venues with their "garbage oil" as you would call it. And to borrow your line "there is no special formula that is different from what the consumer can buy for these cars either", they are running the same Mobil 1 0w40 you can buy at Walmart.

The one claiming inferiority was yourself. You know, it is quite possible to say that one product is good, without dragging their competition through the mud.

overrated oil is still overrated

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
DH - I read what you wrote. I just don't agree with all of it and it was too long to break down point by point. I am TRYING to make shorter posts these days.

Just FYI - RP does and has for as long as I have used it carried API certification on at least some of their oils. They recently reformulated some of the more popular weights to the most current API service level( SN )and they carry the Starburst as well. They have some SM oils in less popular weights( actually weights like 0W-40 are becoming more popular but I hope you know whhat I mean )as well as some older SJ/SL oils too.

RP does not submit to any mfg for licensing however and I have been told it is due to what that costs. Under US law OE certification is not required either just meet/exceed. So RP oils carry no mfg licenses/approvals but their street oils all carry API certification. It isn't like RP offers nothing to hang your hat on. They got their street oils API certified and most of them to the most current API standards. That shows some level of quality.

You are entitled to your opinion so use what makes you comfortable. I will do the same. I personally jjust do not feel that OE licenses/certs/approvals are the huge deal others do. I don't think it mean anything more than you know it meets such and such a spec. If another oil brand meets/exceeds the same spec but isn't licensed I don't see how the license makes it better the way some here seem to think? The only argument I can see is do you trust the test data from the non licensed brand.

Again, to each his own.


I thought they were Dexos licensed on the new oil(s)? Which of course would be a manufacturer approval.........


I have not seen where they are actually Dexos licensed? Rather they claim to meet the performance requirements of Dexos.

On the bottles for the new SN oils, in a little banner attached to the API Starburst symbol, they say "Meets Dexos Specifications". On their Product Data sheet they say "Royal Purple meets both Dexos1 and ILSAC GF-5 specifications in critical lubrication performance". On their general consumer street oil page they say "Royal Purple’s API SN licensed motor oil meets ILSAC GF-5 and Dexos1 performance requirements."

No where have I seen where their oils are actually Dexos licensed.

Now with that said I personally believe that their oils meet the Dexos spec and I would use one of their SN oils in a GM calling for Dexos without hesitation.

 

[OVERKILL]

Ahhh, OK, I mistook this line:


Originally Posted By: Royal Purple
Royal Purple’s API SN licensed motor oil meets ILSAC GF-5 and Dexos1™1 performance requirements.


As meaning it was actually licensed for Dexos1.

 

[Swift]

Good stuff. You can run less expensive products and get great results.

 

[Braap]

I'm a member on a Hyundai Genesis Coupe forum. A member said his car sounded like it was about to throw a rod and it sounded really horrible. One of the more experienced members got on there and asked right away "are you running Royal Purple" to which the individual having the problem replied "why yes, I switched to RP about 500 miles ago." It turned out the more experienced member had seen this multiple times w/ RP.

The member that had the horrible sounding motor changed his oil back to a run of the mill motor oil and the noise instantly went completely away.

I'll pass on the boutique oils.

I would like to run the Amsoil products because they served me very well when I raced motorcycles. But if I compare the cost to Walmart's price on PP the Amsoil is 2x the price. And I know it's not a 2x superior oil. I could just change the PP 2x as often, or pocket another $35 at oil change time.

And I know better than to run extended intervals. I've disassembled motors and diesel injectors that ran extended intervals and the damage (on Amsoil) was immense. 80K injectors looked like they had 700K on them.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Braap
I'm a member on a Hyundai Genesis Coupe forum. A member said his car sounded like it was about to throw a rod and it sounded really horrible. One of the more experienced members got on there and asked right away "are you running Royal Purple" to which the individual having the problem replied "why yes, I switched to RP about 500 miles ago." It turned out the more experienced member had seen this multiple times w/ RP.

The member that had the horrible sounding motor changed his oil back to a run of the mill motor oil and the noise instantly went completely away.

I'll pass on the boutique oils.

I would like to run the Amsoil products because they served me very well when I raced motorcycles. But if I compare the cost to Walmart's price on PP the Amsoil is 2x the price. And I know it's not a 2x superior oil. I could just change the PP 2x as often, or pocket another $35 at oil change time.

And I know better than to run extended intervals. I've disassembled motors and diesel injectors that ran extended intervals and the damage (on Amsoil) was immense. 80K injectors looked like they had 700K on them.


Unless the guy was using 20W-50 where a 20 weight was called for, in a motor that had eben abused, I call [censored] on that story.

 

[Rob_Roy]

I agree, there would have to be something totally out of whack with the oil's viscosity.

 

[steve20]

I don't get the claimed damage to injectors part of it---?

 

[glum]

OMG IT WAS ON THE INSURNETTS IT MUFT BE TWUE!!!

 

[DragRace]

Originally Posted By: Braap
I'm a member on a Hyundai Genesis Coupe forum. A member said his car sounded like it was about to throw a rod and it sounded really horrible. One of the more experienced members got on there and asked right away "are you running Royal Purple" to which the individual having the problem replied "why yes, I switched to RP about 500 miles ago." It turned out the more experienced member had seen this multiple times w/ RP.

The member that had the horrible sounding motor changed his oil back to a run of the mill motor oil and the noise instantly went completely away.

I'll pass on the boutique oils.

I would like to run the Amsoil products because they served me very well when I raced motorcycles. But if I compare the cost to Walmart's price on PP the Amsoil is 2x the price. And I know it's not a 2x superior oil. I could just change the PP 2x as often, or pocket another $35 at oil change time.

And I know better than to run extended intervals. I've disassembled motors and diesel injectors that ran extended intervals and the damage (on Amsoil) was immense. 80K injectors looked like they had 700K on them.


I'm gonna tell you somethin,do you even for a second,expect ANYONE with any mechanical knowledge of an internal gas engine,to believe what you typed here?!

First off,if a engine has internal knocking,etc,thats something internally wrong,period. NO OIL BRAND switching is going to make this "noise" go away,it just doesnt work that way,sorry.

 

[Bambam]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: Braap
I'm a member on a Hyundai Genesis Coupe forum. A member said his car sounded like it was about to throw a rod and it sounded really horrible. One of the more experienced members got on there and asked right away "are you running Royal Purple" to which the individual having the problem replied "why yes, I switched to RP about 500 miles ago." It turned out the more experienced member had seen this multiple times w/ RP.

The member that had the horrible sounding motor changed his oil back to a run of the mill motor oil and the noise instantly went completely away.

I'll pass on the boutique oils.

I would like to run the Amsoil products because they served me very well when I raced motorcycles. But if I compare the cost to Walmart's price on PP the Amsoil is 2x the price. And I know it's not a 2x superior oil. I could just change the PP 2x as often, or pocket another $35 at oil change time.

And I know better than to run extended intervals. I've disassembled motors and diesel injectors that ran extended intervals and the damage (on Amsoil) was immense. 80K injectors looked like they had 700K on them.


Unless the guy was using 20W-50 where a 20 weight was called for, in a motor that had eben abused, I call [censored] on that story.


X2

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
MB and Porsche's Approval Lists cover hundreds of lubricants around the World. All will perform at acceptable levels - no expensive non approved Boutique lubricant will do any better!


I think that's the most important point made here. I've used RP in the past and likely will again. However, I don't own any vehicles that have any manufacturer's approval lists. If I were driving a BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, or Audi that had a list of approved lubricants, I'd very likely be following that list, whether it was still in warranty or not.

However, there are plenty of vehicles speced for SL/GF-3, and Royal Purple is appropriately licenced for that and markets appropriate viscosities for such vehicles. Their 0w-40 and 5w-40 carry some ACEA specification, but not any manufacturers' approvals, at least not to my knowledge.

I see no problem using it where appropriate. I certainly don't know enough about RP specs nor do I have the personal expertise to try it in, say, a brand new R8. However, in my old 1991 Audi 200 Turbo, it exceeds all requirements and is available in the various viscosities needed for various temperatures. Yes, it's probably overkill, too.