Royal Purple 10-2867, Amsoil EA15K13-EA out of stock for months

[ZeeOSix]

I am not here to debate. I did some time with a two major filter companies and see how the internet throws off everything into extremes. With some members, its the same ******** argument over nothing, OVER and OVER again. Look at me cause I know better. Some think they do and they don't.

In what capacity? Did they do any lab vs real world testing like some SAE studies have done? Tell us how all these ISO and SAE test standards that have been around for decades and used over the entire globe in the filter industry are all wrong compared to how those filters perform in the real world.

BTW, one of the best UOAs that I've seen is without a full flow filter which is pretty scary when so many have trust in UOAs and there megamicron super filters, especially when many full flow filters spend a considerate time in bypass and load up quickly. I remember some 'non bench tests' but real manufacturer 'engine tests' where typical filters were loaded up within 3000 miles. There is a relationship with engine soot and test powders but its not as close as we want to believe. I wish all my engines produced standardized ISO quality debris for my filter.

There have been SAE studies that showed a good correlation between lab filter efficiency testing and oil cleanliness and wear in real world use. The only way to know how oil filtration and resulting oil cleanliness effects wear rates it to have a very controlled study. Not a few UOAs on some uncontrolled vehicles.

How do you know the filters loaded up quickly and the bypass valve was open a considerable time? Where those filters instrumented on the vehicles, or were those filters tested in the lab to determine their flow vs delta-p and how much loading they actually had?

And, the only way to know if a filter is in relief or not, or partially in relief, is to put a sensor on the bypass valve. Yes, the pre/post gauges provides less data than most want to believe. The data we use here, other than for internet debates, is borderline useless concerning bypasses, and why I don't bother running pre/post PSI gauges on my filters on daily drivers.

If there were accurate pre and post filter pressure gauges (or simply a delta-p gauge setup) you would certainly get all the info you'd need to see what the delta-p across the filter is doing. How would that "provide less data than most want to believe". There is no magic here.

If anyone wants to debate filtration, spend a few years at Wix, Fram, Champ, Donaldson, Luberfiner, or Purolator, and definitely not in the 'marketing department'. Come back when more aware especially if spending time in R&D, testing, or failure analysis. This forum doesn't see 1/100 of the proprietary data from filter manufacturers. We get the best of the marketing aspect, and testing data no more better than 'projectfarm' which seems to be slandered often here.

When Motoking was active here, we got some good technical information from him that Fram never divulges to the public, like the flow performance of the Ultra. And when it was tested by the independent lab (link given in post #11) it showed it flowed very well just as Motoking relayed to us here when asked for that performance information. Also, way back Purolator actually ran a flow vs delta-p test on a PureOne when asked to (back when their engineers actually responded with tech info to emails sent to Purolator), and the long standing myth that PureOne oil filters were "too restrictive because they were so efficient". That's again why "flow over filtration" is a long standing myth.

If an oil filter is designed correctly it can be high efficiency, high holding capacity and good flowing (meaning low delta-p vs flow) all at the same time. Not all oil filters are designed that way, but most here know which ones are by gleaning bits and pieces of technical info over the years, and from data like shown in the ISO testing link given in post #11. Have you even read that thread? There's a lot of good technical discussion there, and some things shown to be true (that have been denied by nay-sayers for years) about how oil filters become less efficient as the load up (instead of the myth that they get more efficient), and that oil filters that rate higher in the ISO efficiency test are more likely also the filters that shed (from delta-p) a lot less already captured debris as they load up, which IMO is something important in the performance of any filter.

 

[Greasymechtech]

Flow/filtration is not a myth. I had a perfectly healthy engine that couldn't run with the original PureOne blue metallic filter..... startup rattle was excessive and running noises were consistent especially as rpm increased. That's the problem with REAL WORLD vs LAB TESTS. And, had to deal with fools thinking PD pumped oil systems are a perfect world and the engine should sound the same regardless of filter. All other filters available worked fine with that engine. I've also had to deal with some of the P1 cartridges collapsing into an hourglass shape, which I shipped back to Purolator. Obviously, even though the filter collapse into an hourglass and shorter, their test data and conclusion was that the filter was 'just fine' as is and they gave me some free stuff. If the filter shrunk in height, it was being bypassed and that is 'just fine'. Well, I stuck with cartridges that didn't change shape excessively if at all, and still stayed sealed in their housing.

Motorking provided some useful info but that is only useful in the context of their testing and possibly just enough info for 'sales and marketing', to create support for a superior product.

And, concerning SAE papers, much data is old and obsolete. Some are still subject to critiquing too. Its data but not perfection, and sometimes still doesn't correlate well enough in the real world. There will be a balance between flow preventing wear and filtration preventing wear, and NO SAE paper is around determining what is best for ANY specific engine. We don't live in a situation with unlimited surplus oil flow. You can use a bypass filter as a full flow filter and scrub that oil so spotless clean... but not enough flow will get to the engine to save it. I have a feeling that the early attempts of the improved fullflows relied too much on bypass capability. Amsoil is still learning about that issue. Wix seems to know enough to avoid it altogether. The clogged filter is not a myth. The overly restrictive filter is not a myth. And, delta-p, like PD pumps, is misused too often. Delta P across a filter on an engine is only useful when both the pump and filter bypassing amounts are known.

And again, when Amsoil/Royalpurple filters are unavailable, use the Boss or XP/Platinum filters. I am hoping that Titanium stays synthetic and understand why the new Ultra has a cellulose layer(and its not all about cost cutting). Synth media has 'negatives' that no one wants to talk about.

 

[OVERKILL]

I have a feeling that the early attempts of the improved fullflows relied too much on bypass capability. Amsoil is still learning about that issue.

I'm not sure what role AMSOIL has, if any, in the more design-oriented aspects of their filters. I'd also be curious, though I suspect we won't know, what the differences are between the EaO and the Ea15K filters in terms of construction, if there is any. The EaO's never had the TSB, while the 15K did. Are they using less media? Are they using different media?

My understanding of the AMSOIL filter program, at its inception, was the contracting of the use of Donaldson's excellent Synteq media, which they use in their ELF and other high-end filters, fitted to a traditional can. Did they deviate from that with the Ea15K filters?

Of course media area plays a huge role in flow at a given efficiency, regardless of whether that media is synthetic or cellulose. While synthetic media offers higher flow at the same efficiency for a given surface area, if you use less media, ultimately it may still flow less. This should be well-tested during development, but if that's contracted out, are these companies doing their due diligence? Clearly, FRAM did with the OG Ultra, but perhaps Champ or whoever assembled the Ea15k's (ignoring the incorrect bypass spec issue for the moment) didn't.

The big players in the synthetic media space don't make much in the way of automotive filtration offerings with that technology, those companies being Fleetguard and Donaldson, whose work on this front has revolved around heavy duty applications. The Royal Purple filters are a Champ product, but we don't have much more info on them than that. I assume the media is Champ supplied (reasonable assumption I think).

 

[ZeeOSix]

Flow/filtration is not a myth. I had a perfectly healthy engine that couldn't run with the original PureOne blue metallic filter..... startup rattle was excessive and running noises were consistent especially as rpm increased. That's the problem with REAL WORLD vs LAB TESTS. And, had to deal with fools thinking PD pumped oil systems are a perfect world and the engine should sound the same regardless of filter. All other filters available worked fine with that engine.

The oil pump on that vehicle was either weak enough to be effected by a small increase or change in filter flow resistance (delta-p), or that oil filter was flawed, or a combo of both. Did it have closed louvers in the center tube? ... that would certainly cause a flow problem, and why I always criticize filters with closed louvers. I ran 5 or 6 different brand oil filters on my Z06 which has a digital oil pressure and temperature gauge, and there was zero difference between all those filters on the oil pressure throughout the RPM range (up to ~6000 RPM), which means the flow was the same in all of them and also means the PD oil pump was solid, not an inefficient or worn out pump, and never hit pressure relief. Also saw no oil pressure differences between cold start-up and warm-up at various RPM while the pump was not in any pressure relief.

Motorking provided some useful info but that is only useful in the context of their testing and possibly just enough info for 'sales and marketing', to create support for a superior product.

It was verified by the independence ISO test lab in post #11.

And, concerning SAE papers, much data is old and obsolete. Some are still subject to critiquing too. Its data but not perfection, and sometimes still doesn't correlate well enough in the real world. There will be a balance between flow preventing wear and filtration preventing wear, and NO SAE paper is around determining what is best for ANY specific engine. We don't live in a situation with unlimited surplus oil flow. You can use a bypass filter as a full flow filter and scrub that oil so spotless clean... but not enough flow will get to the engine to save it. I have a feeling that the early attempts of the improved fullflows relied too much on bypass capability. Amsoil is still learning about that issue. Wix seems to know enough to avoid it altogether. The clogged filter is not a myth.

So much wrong in these statements. Tell us how you have better correlation between filter efficiency testing and performance in the real world ... do you have official controlled studies or references that claims otherwise? You will not find any because I've searched for years for that proof ... there is none.

Nobody claimed that clogged filters are myths. Any filter can become very clogged dependent on the filter's efficiency level, holding capacity and the health level of the engine and how long the filter is used.

The overly restrictive filter is not a myth. And, delta-p, like PD pumps, is misused too often. Delta P across a filter on an engine is only useful when both the pump and filter bypassing amounts are known.

You obviously have not read the entire thread given in post #11. All new oil filters that are designed appropriately are not restrictive. Like mentioned before, Purolator provides flow vs delta-p data of a PureOne and it was about a free flowing as oil filters can be, even though it is high efficiency. Purolator knows that increasing the media area improves the flow performance, and the PureOnes had a lot of media area ... probably still do.

 

[ZeeOSix]

And, concerning SAE papers, much data is old and obsolete. Some are still subject to critiquing too. Its data but not perfection, and sometimes still doesn't correlate well enough in the real world.

Here's just a few ... do you have at least one or two studies that shows there is no correlation between oil filter efficiency, oil cleanliness and engine wear?

You keep making these claims like you have some solid proof, so where's the data that shows otherwise?

 

[Inverted]

Summit Racing and O'Reilly show that RP part number in stock.

No they don't.

 

[Inverted]

If you simply google the part number, Summit and O'Reilly show in stock. You click them and both are unavailable. Summit has been special order for months. O'Reilly shows shipping and pickup as unavailable.

 

[drtyler]

If you simply google the part number, Summit and O'Reilly show in stock. You click them and both are unavailable. Summit has been special order for months. O'Reilly shows shipping and pickup as unavailable.

When I posted the first message, both websites showed stock. But that must have been an error. I did not use google.

Can you use the slightly larger 10-2808 filter? It is showing in stock. That was the filter Honda used before the 10-2867 size (and subsequently back spec'd all the 2808 size filters to the smaller 2867 size). However, the filter base on newer Hondas may not accept the slightly larger diameter filter.

Good luck in your search. The RP and Amsoil filters are great filters with very good build quality. I've never had an issue with either.

 

[Inverted]

Just to update, these filters are still out of stock everywhere.

 

[ltslimjim]

Just to update, these filters are still out of stock everywhere.

I chose to use a discount code and get the Fram Titanium from AAP. It’s the OG style Ultra with the wire backing.

 

[Inverted]

Update from Royal Purple:

Good Morning Mark,

Thank you for contacting us. The Royal Purple Extended Life Oil Filter #10-2867 has been out of stock at most retail stores and distributors for the past few months due to recent supply chain disruptions and shortages.

We have been in contact with our oil filter manufacturer Champion Labs, and they confirmed with us earlier this month that they had produced a batch of the 10-2867 and it was available for distributors and retailers to order. Unfortunately, we in the tech department do not know the exact date as to when retailers/distributors will have the filter back on their shelves.

Best Regards,

Cody Bartkowiak
Automotive, Technical Support

 

[V.I.Subie]

With filter companies being bought/sold and tossed around, don't expect all 'non manufacturers' to have full inventory until renewal of contracts, if renewable.

For other full synth media filters:
Wix has the 57356XP
Napa Platinum PFL 47356
Titanium FS7317
Boss PBL14610

Am expecting more 'part consolidation' in the future. So, take what you can get as PN's disappear.

And, if there is room, you might be able use a slightly larger diameter equivalent in the 9688 or 3593a size.

That WIX isn’t the best one. Grab the 57712 or 57712XP which has the 23 psi bypass pressure. That WIX might not have the 23 psi bypass pressure.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

The OP asked a simple question and got his answer. Because someone has to disagree with the answer and it becomes the same old stupid debate over and over. OP isn't participating or requesting substitutes. Lets see how many pages and years we can keep this thread going for nothing.

So you dodge questions based on facts from published studies, tell us you’re smarter than us because of your feelings and what you claim to know, use irrelevant subjective claims to muddy the issue, get mad when people call you on your bull, yet still expect the OP to follow your recommendations and we’re the ones keeping this thread going for nothing? Mmkay.

Show just one study that shows anything other than “cleaner oil results in less wear” like ZeeOSix has posted, and we’ll crown you King of the Internets.

If OP wants a replacement filter that delivers filtration on the order of the Amsoil or Royal Purple, the minimum acceptable filtration performance is 98.7%@20 microns, end of story.

 

[Greasymechtech]

The OP never stated what filtration level he wanted. He just wanted certain PN's that were out of stock or unavailable at the time. Keep trolling!

Since most don't have a clue why the bypass pressure is whatever the automaker wants, its a useless data point.

I haven't seen any particle counts in running vehicles that show the Wix as 'not the best one' either. Which filter has the most gram holding capacity? What is the gram loading amount of your engine... that unknown variable that means everything!

Oh well, I'll keep using my low bypass PSI Wix/Napa synthetic media filters until they're not available, with NO WORRY concerning bypass pressure, bench tests, or even the holding capacity.... except for the next oil change since I just picked up a Purolator Boss(another pariah filter maybe with no following).

 

[Inverted]

Just to update, the 10-2867 is STILL out of stock everywhere.

 

[Ignatius]

Just to update, the 10-2867 is STILL out of stock everywhere.

Champ PH2867XL is still readily available at Rock Auto.

 

[drtyler]

Amsoil EA15K13 appears to be in stock now.