Rotella T6 15w40 at Walmart

So fast forward to this thread and what part of Tom NJ understanding of CCS and MRV is not correct???
This part: "The CCS test measures the ability of the oil to be picked up and pumped by the oil pump under shear stress."

The CCS test is to determine if an engine can crank over and start with very cold thick oil between all the moving parts.

The ability of the oil "to be picked up and pumped" is the MRV ... the pumpability of the oil.

If the engine starts, then the oil better be pumpable by the pump or the engine will be starved of oil and not be adequately lubricated, thereby causing damage. That's the reason the CCS and MRV test were invented and part of the J300 "W" rating of motor oil.
 
Last edited:
@ZeeOSix that’s exactly the portion I was talking about, thanks for making it clear👍

@BusyLittleShop that was probably the discussion where I picked up the jello analogy from, however that discussion was about the test itself and I didn’t understand, at the time, why they were applying shear stress to the oil. But when engine rotates it applies shear forces to oil, so when cranking those internal oil shear forces need to be overcome by the starter.

Regarding the jello analogy, at the time I was only thinking about flow and ability to being pumped, since a positive displacement pump will make almost anything flow, not realizing that in extremely low temperatures, the wax crystals in oil can prevent it from flowing against itself, thus making the pump cavitate. And TomNJ’s jello analogy hits a home run in this regard, at least it did for me since I used this analogy without even remembering that old discussion.

Could CCS be used to determine oil pumpability? Maybe, since in order to crank an engine, the oil has to be pumped, but the test itself, as the name implies, is for simulating cold cranking, which needs to overcome oil resistance. MRV tests for flow into the oil pickup tube, as far as I know.

Fact is that both the CCS and MRV tests are needed to obtain a specific W rating and these ratings are not meant to represent flow at below operation temperatures, which was your assertion and what prompted my original reply. Which, BTW you didn’t address at all, but instead you quote other discussions not related to your assertion.
 
Last edited:
where upon you thanked Tom NJ for his input even though you couldn't wrap your "head around his post."

Quote KisZ
"Thanks Tom for your input. However I still can't wrap my head around your post that the CCS test represents the oil ability to be picked up by the pump.

I didn’t say I couldn’t wrap my head around his entire post, but about the part that CCS represents how oil will be picked up by the pump. I still don’t think that CCV represents that. And what’s wrong for thanking someone for a well written post, even if I don’t understand or agree with portions of it?

Not sure what you are trying to achieve here. Do you understand these tests? I highly doubt you do.
 
Here's a couple of short videos that show exactly what I've said above.

CCS is to simulate the engine cranking over. The colder and thicker the oil is between moving parts, the harder it will be for an engine to crank over and start.

The MRV is to simulate the pumpability of the oil from the sump to the pump, and be sent into the oiling system. As said before, the MRV is a bit more stringent to meed in SAE J300, because if an engine starts the oil better be able to be pumped from the sump and sent through the oiling system. Don't want an engine to start and not have the oil be pumpable - bad things will happen.

These are dynamic viscosity (units of cP) flow tests, not kinematic viscosity (units of cSt).

CCS


MRV
 
Last edited:
Could CCS be used to determine oil pumpability? Maybe, since in order to crank an engine, the oil has to be pumped, but the test itself, as the name implies, is for simulating cold cranking, which needs to overcome oil resistance. MRV tests for flow into the oil pickup tube, as far as I know.
No, CCS isn't used to determine oil pumpability ... that's what MRV is specifically for, as you've concluded. Imaging an engine sitting at -30C with super cold thick oil between all the moving parts, and there is no oil in the sump. If you tried to crank that engine over, it would take a lot of energy, even if there was no oil in the sump for the pump to pick-up. That's what the CCS test determines ... how well a super cold engine will crank over with different W rated oils between all it's moving parts.
 
These are dynamic viscosity (units of cP) flow tests, not kinematic viscosity (units of cSt).
CCS are dynamic viscosity SPIN test not kinematic viscosity FLOW test because at the simulated minus temps oil will not flow...

ColdCrankSim.jpg
 
CCS are dynamic viscosity SPIN test not kinematic viscosity FLOW test because at the simulated minus temps oil will not flow...

View attachment 109388
Exactly what I said ... go read it again. And if it's units of cP (centipoise) as I said it HAS to be dynamic viscosity.

Any time oil is being moved and sheared beyond how it flows under it's own gravitational weight, then it is dynamic flow and measured as dynamic viscosity.
 
Exactly what I said ... go read it again. And if it's units of cP (centipoise) as I said it HAS to be dynamic viscosity.

Any time oil is being moved and sheared beyond how it flows under it's own gravitational weight, then it is dynamic flow and measured as dynamic viscosity.
You didn't mention the DC motor... CCS is spun by a DC motor to establish 5w or 10w whereas the 40 grade is powered by gravity flow timed by a stop watch...

Its important to note 40 grade is not a measurement of an oil's weight nor its thickness only flow and you want the quickest flowing oil possible to meet and exceed your mileage expectations...

ViscosityTest1.jpg
 
You didn't mention the DC motor... CCS is spun by a DC motor to establish 5w or 10w
It's pretty evident that it's a dynamic test (not kinematic) if you actually watched the videos I posted. HTHS is also a dynamic viscosity test.
 
Mercy!!! what to make of it all???

CCS test and 40C start up flow test are important tools to know about
your oil because roughly 60% of total engine wear occurs during cold
start up conditions before oil can circulate through the engine...

At start up temp of 40C (212F) 40 grades are ranked by their cSt flow
rates from the quickest 80 cSt to slowest 165 cSt...

1)0w40....80 cSt
2)5w40....90 cSt
3)10w40...110 cSt
4)15w40...118 cSt
5)Mono40..165 cSt

Once your oil reaches the operating temp of 100C (212F) 40 grade cSt
flow rates are considered equal...

1)0w40....14.3 cSt
2)5w40....14.4 cSt
3)10w40...15.5 cSt
4)15w40...15.6 cSt
5)Mono40..15.8 cSt
 
^^^ There's a reason engine oiling system designers use a PD oil pump. You really think an engine is being damaged at a chilling "cold stat-up" at 40C, lol. If that was the case, all the millions of engines in super cold winter climates should all be blown-up and in the junk yards.

The whole reason for SAE coming up with the CCS and MRV tests is to give a "W" (Winter) rating of the oil is so those very cold start-ups don't harm engines.
 
Mercy indeed. These cSt values are derived during the test, in order to grade engine oils and have a universal spec. These do not represent oil flow in an engine. They all flow pretty much the same at the temperatures you posted.

Even at extremely low temp, the are pretty close because of positive displacement pumps. That’s the reason these types of pumps are used in engines.
 
So back to the question of sheer stability between 5w-40 and 15w-40.
Is there really any proven different in how sheer stable one is over another?
I know there is a saying that the larger the difference between the W rating and the oil weight, the more viscosity improvers (or something to that affect) are needed, which can reduce sheer stability.

I am with the OP, in my motorcycle, I have no need to be able to start my motorcycle at temps below freezing, so a 15w-xx oil is just fine for me.
I am about to switch from 15w-40 HDEO (currently have Walmart Supertech HDEO, but had been using Peak syn-blend for a few years) to Mobil 1 10w-40 high mileage. Have heard from many Goldwing owners that shifting is improved with the M1 HM oil, so figured I would give it a try.
 
So back to the question of sheer stability between 5w-40 and 15w-40.
Is there really any proven different in how sheer stable one is over another?
5w-40's post-shear limit is different from the 15w-40. After-test HTHS >3.5 vs >3.7

I know there is a saying that the larger the difference between the W rating and the oil weight, the more viscosity improvers (or something to that affect) are needed, which can reduce sheer stability.
Yeah, in the T6 line 15w-40 should have less VII than the 5w-40, which means the base oil viscosity will be higher.
I am with the OP, in my motorcycle, I have no need to be able to start my motorcycle at temps below freezing, so a 15w-xx oil is just fine for me.
I am about to switch from 15w-40 HDEO (currently have Walmart Supertech HDEO, but had been using Peak syn-blend for a few years) to Mobil 1 10w-40 high mileage. Have heard from many Goldwing owners that shifting is improved with the M1 HM oil, so figured I would give it a try.
I would stick with the HDEOs, but if you go with M1, don't forget you can get a rebate on that right now.
 
...

I would stick with the HDEOs, but if you go with M1, don't forget you can get a rebate on that right now.
One of the reasons I decided to try it next change (plus my stash is void of any 15w-40 HDEO at this time, although I do have 12 qts of Rotella T6 0w-40, but that is for my Santa Fe).
Walmart has Mobil 1 10w-40 HM for $25/jug, with a $16 rebate on 2 jugs, so about $40 for 10 qts is not too bad.
Actually just got my rebate card in today.
 
So back to the question of sheer stability between 5w-40 and 15w-40.
Is there really any proven different in how sheer stable one is over another?
Not proven, but good enough for me. I ran T6 5W-40 in my Honda ST1300 for two oil changes. The first was a short half-season 1200 mile change. I noticed when I put new oil in that the shifting was better. That second fill of T6 5W-40 went about 1500 miles before I had to dump it. Shifting became so notchy and clanky that it needed to get out.

I have since run Mobil 1 4T 10W-40 (5000 mi), Castrol ActEvo 4T 10W-40 (5000 mi) and Valvoline 4T 10W-40 (6500 miles and still going) without any issues of clanky notchy shifting.

I have not tried T6 15W-40.
 
I noticed when I put new oil in that the shifting was better. That second fill of T6 5W-40 went about 1500 miles before I had to dump it. Shifting became so notchy and clanky that it needed to get out.
Come on ... you know that detecting a change in shift quality is all just a fallacy. 😄😋
 
T6 worked OK for my 98 Kawasaki Ninja 250, but the the T6 is still hard to foot swift into gear when the engine is cold. My Ninja likes anything with a JASO specs on it 10W-40, no problem swifting into gears cold or hot engine.
 
Back
Top