RLI BioSyn 0w-30, 10762 mi, 1997 Integra Type-R

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: webfors
Good report! However, as already mentioned I wouldn't put faith in TBN retention with that much top up, regardless of the how we want to interpret the effects of oil consumption. You could probably go 20k miles if a quart every 2k is added.

No one said anything about TBN retention. Just that the TBN indicates that this is not an extended-drain oil per se.

 

[webfors]

Is consumption a taboo topic on this thread? That's a good report! Just like the 10k Civic Si report on PP with as much consumption was good. I'd be very happy with either. Consumption doesn't bother me, especially in a high rev'ing vtec Honda.. in fact I would expect it.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Doesn't the added oil replenish the add pack a bit, and boost TBN?

Yes. And burning oil stresses the add pack and depletes the TBN.


TBN was discussed, sorry the word 'retention' was not. But the words 'boost, replenish and depletes' were. Same same.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Results are pretty dang good for an oil that is designed more for low drag than for extended drains (starting TBN is something like 6).


This implies you're impressed how the oil held up considering it only has a TBN of 6.... it's not 6 with 5 quarts of oil added. But we can ignore it, whistle and ignore the white elephant in the room. I can't imagine why would wouldn't discuss consumption. It's the only thing interesting about this UOA IMHO.. everything else is boring (meaning good).

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: webfors
TBN was discussed, sorry the word 'retention' was not. But the words 'boost, replenish and depletes' were. Same same.

Not at all. Retention is a net effect. Those other terms are components. Moreover, that line of discussion was a tangent (which is why it was transferred to another thread), so the context was not the same.

In fact, I would even go a step further and say that because of all the boosting and depleting going on in this application, it's a terrible one in which to judge the TBN retention of this oil -- which is why I never brought it up.


Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Results are pretty dang good for an oil that is designed more for low drag than for extended drains (starting TBN is something like 6).


This implies you're impressed how the oil held up considering it only has a TBN of 6

No, it doesn't. It states explicitly that I was impressed with how the oil held up considering that it is apparently not an extended drain oil per se. The low starting TBN is just an example attribute.


Originally Posted By: webfors
I can't imagine why would wouldn't discuss consumption. It's the only thing interesting about this UOA IMHO.. everything else is boring (meaning good).

I agree. Shall we talk about that, then, instead of things that were never said?

 

[BrianEM]

I
It's like a free fumigation/smoke screen for the people behind me when I go WOT

 

[d00df00d]

Yeah, I know. Jerk.

 

[FZ1]

I'd switch it to M1 EP 5-30. $38 for 5 quarts and an M1 filter at AZ.

 

[Pesca]

BrianEM or d00df00d, could have I your opinion about the Oxidation level?
It is 3 times above the Dyson warning limit. Do you think it could bring some wear in the engine at that level?

 

[gib]

The high oxidation number seems to be an artifact of RLI BioSyn being an ester based oil. Redline oils also show high oxidation numbers. Something about the ester basestocks throws the reading off.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: gib
The high oxidation number seems to be an artifact of RLI BioSyn being an ester based oil. Redline oils also show high oxidation numbers. Something about the ester basestocks throws the reading off.

This is my understanding as well.

As for the listed limits, those are loose guidelines. The actual limits will be different for various oils and applications.

 

[Pesca]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: gib
The high oxidation number seems to be an artifact of RLI BioSyn being an ester based oil. Redline oils also show high oxidation numbers. Something about the ester basestocks throws the reading off.

This is my understanding as well.

As for the listed limits, those are loose guidelines. The actual limits will be different for various oils and applications.


OK, I did not know. Thanks for the info.

 

[BrianEM]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
I'd switch it to M1 EP 5-30. $38 for 5 quarts and an M1 filter at AZ.


Is there any basis behind this "recommendation" aside from the fact that it's a good deal (which it isn't...that's not too special a price)? If I was looking for cheap, I'd buy a 5-qt jug of SuperTech for $20 and get a $5 oil filter. I don't buy oil that's on sale to put in my expensive (to me), high-revving, high-compression, high specific output engine...lubricant is the most important possible thing your car has to keep itself running well for a long time, so why on earth would you cheap out if you care about the engine?

That's my theory, at least...

 

[dparm]

I will say this, most Honda motors are not picky about the oil they run on. My Integra GS-R saw Mobil 1 5w20 and 0w20 for almost all of its life; I sold it with 88k on the clock and the compression was perfect with zero oil consumption.

That being said, I think the RLI is a good choice for this motor. The UOA looks good.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
I'd switch it to M1 EP 5-30.


Why?

Ultra was more "durable" than M1 EP in my 4.6s going by the butt-o-meter.

 

[BrianEM]

dparm, I really do agree with you. Most people do end up going with whatever synthetic 5w30 is on sale (or whatever brand they've always used), and most people are fine. I just don't like it when people make blind comments saying I should just get the stuff that's on sale and don't say anything else, especially in a thread where we're talking about much more in-depth (relevant) stuff than what's on sale...

 

[JoeFromPA]

Didn't realize you guys were around or near Wayne - I'm getting a master's degree at 'Nova and live between Malvern and West Chester.

Anyway....on the consumption issue, here's the bottom line:

A UOA is evaluating an oils characteristics at a point in time and whether or not its suitable for continued use in your engine. Consumption absolutely helps extend that, but how is it not a useful UOA?

All it does is prevent a good expectation from forming on how that same oil would do in a non-consuming engine. So what? It's still useful to the owner, who can say "Hey, as long as my consumption stays around the same, this oil is at no risk of wearing out so I can just keep running it and adding a quart every 2000 miles".

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
A UOA is evaluating an oils characteristics at a point in time and whether or not its suitable for continued use in your engine. Consumption absolutely helps extend that, but how is it not a useful UOA?

All it does is prevent a good expectation from forming on how that same oil would do in a non-consuming engine. So what? It's still useful to the owner, who can say "Hey, as long as my consumption stays around the same, this oil is at no risk of wearing out so I can just keep running it and adding a quart every 2000 miles".


I agree with everything you said except where you say "this oil is at no risk of wearing out." There is clearly contamination accumulating that is likely related to the oil consumption in some way, which obviously cannot be removed by the top-off and thus can never be fully compensated for.

...Unless that was an exaggeration for effect. In which case, scratch the above.

Yes, we do live in the greater Philly area. We should hang out one time!

 

[JoeFromPA]

Accumulated contamination to what extent? I see nothing of concern, but my view of the report is pretty poor (the actual visual is poor).

I was exaggerating, as at some point you want an all new fresh run with a new oil filter, but nonetheless....where that point is seems to be very up in the air.

My 06 Civic SI has exhibited the same fate with pennzoil platinum 5w30 and amsoil sso 0w30....it consumes a quart every 3500 miles or so, and it never seems to actually need to be changed. Even at 16.3k mile run at one point...

...

Anyway, love to hang out sometime. Life is all-consuming right now, but let me know which car to bring

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
Accumulated contamination to what extent? I see nothing of concern, but my view of the report is pretty poor (the actual visual is poor).

Look at fuel dilution and sulfate byproducts.

Also, flash point is about 100º lower than spec, TAN is creeping up there, viscosity seems to have changed slightly, and antimony content is down from normal (based on what I've heard), so there is evidence that the chemical content and properties of the oil have changed slightly.

 

[JoeFromPA]

Fuel Dilution is not an accumulated byproduct, since it can be burned off in a single drive, so I discount that unless its a chronic condition or is in combination with a sheared viscosity.

As far as I know, RLI has a high TAN to start with so I also discount that.

Regarding antimony content changing - Serious question: How would the oil content of the antimony change? Does it burn off with hours run? This is spectral analysis right, so we're talking about that metal being GONE from the oil. How?

I did miss the sulphate byproduct. I'll ask again though if that's a byproduct of RLI or not. I'm not sure there.

I see your points, I just think alot of them are fairly easily dismissed (IMHO, which isn't so humble)

Joe

 

[d00df00d]

I think it should be obvious that fuel dilution cannot be entirely burned off in a single drive, since it's still there after a sample taken with the engine hot. Most of my samples have been taken hot, and even my lowest fuel dilution number is even higher than this.

As for the rest, I'm not sure I can answer your questions without referring to information I received on the condition that I would recognize it as someone else's intellectual property. I've already cut it a bit close with what I've said so far. If you're unwilling to take my word for it, for which I certainly can't blame you, then feel free to throw it out.

Suffice it to say that neither Brian nor I consider topped-off oil to be comparable to changed oil. It certainly seems obvious that the contents of the sump after 10k miles of usage and fuel dilution will not be the same as they were initially, no matter how frequently it's topped off. Consumption removes different contents from the oil at different rates; top-off adds ingredients in their original proportions. That part at least is fairly straightforward.