Replenishing an Additive Package

[Shel_B]

Just a random thought while making the morning coffee:

A lot of folks put OTC additives in their oil in order to combat engine problems or to put an ingredient into the oil that the user feels may be lacking, like a moly additive.

It's been said here many times that oil is carefully formulated so that the additive pkg is balanced for the intended purpose of the oil, and that OTC additives are not recommended.

And I've read here that HPL may sometimes work up a custom blend for a customer.

So, with all of this running through my head, I started thinking that it might be nice if an oil manufacturer could provide an additive blend designed for a specific oil that could be added to the sump as the oil gets used and additives become depleted (ex: Mobil 1 EP replenishment additive to be used after 10,000 miles).

Is that something an oil company could do? What problems might need to be overcome in order to do something like this?

 

[JohnnyG]

That would be ok for a little while, but additives are not the only thing that makes an oil serviceable. Shear alone is an issue, as well as the medium used to carry away carbon and other nasties, including fuel/water contamination.

 

[spasm3]

Thats kind of what SLOB used to be. But its better to change out the additives with new oil. The carbon and other insolubles not caught by the filter , need to be dtained, not to mention the rise in wear metal. DI may be even more important to change, due to fuel dilution/degradation and soot.

 

[RooflessVW]

Hot Shot's Secret TBN Booster
BG MOA
MOC Engine Treatment

 

[Greasymechtech]

No one should be going past 10000 miles without proper filtration, that you won't get from a full flow filter, regardless how fancy the filter marketing is.

The oil companies and auto manufacturers could do whatever they want.... but what is the point for the current intervals....
They could make a good replenish oil for those with 'bypass oil filters'.... i.e. a situation, where you NEVER change the oil. Change the filters when clogged and add 'replenish' or 'add oils', as needed. Cook off fuel/water with an oil heater(reclaimo/puradyn/premoplus).

There was a brand, some say a scam, that sold replenish 'oils' for their super duper long life oil. You used the 'add' oil when changing filters or topping off. The Synlube lube4life marketing wasn't ever cool enough for the popular crowd. And, some questioned whether it was just a scam. (text removed - mod)

Other brands sold TBN boosters to keep the oil going....

Kem-O-Pro

Car wax Kemopro automotive, marine and industrial cleaners, fuel additives, protectants, synthetic engine lubricants, oil treatments, carnauba polishes, waxes. Distributors wanted. Sold internationally since 1974.

jbchemicalusa.com

TBN Booster - Engine Oil Stabilizer | Hot Shot's Secret

Increase total base number (TBN) and viscosity with Hot Shot's TBN booster additive. This engine oil stabilizer replenishes detergents and dispersants.

www.hotshotsecret.com

250ML - E802316 | Eurol TBN Booster

Oil additive aimed at extending the oil drain interval

eurol.com

Motor oils, additives and car care from LIQUI MOLY

Motor oil, additives and car care from LIQUI MOLY, the lubricant specialist from Ulm, Germany. With more than 4000 items for every vehicle in the world

products.liqui-moly.com

Oil Extreme International Group

For Unparalleled Lubrication Excellence, Choose the Industry Leader in High-Performance Lubricant Oil Additives since 1987

www.oilextreme.com

You'll have to UOA to see what needs 'boosting'. Its not all about TBN, viscosity, .... its not like we can test MRV/CCS/HTHS in our kitchen.

Fram used to sell a filter with 'additives'. Everybody knows about the Fram CH/PH/TG/X2/XG filters.... but what about the "HM" filters. Fram high mileage oil filter... long forgotten. FRAM High Mileage filter contains a cartridge of proprietary detergents and compounds that maintain viscosity, reduce corrosive wear, neutralize acids and keep engine component cleaner.
LuberFiner had the TRT: https://luberfiner.com/documents/misc/en/LF-TRT-Brochure-020513.pdf

I didn't get the STP gold bottle TBN but the Calcium level makes you wonder. Below is the STP Synthetic oil treatment in the gold bottle. I tend to recommend it as the '1st pint' top-off oil to all(detergent level to clean and visc to save some oil consumption). I also recommend BG MOA the same way too. Can't find my BG VOA's of it at the moment but remember it being an over dosed additive 30 grade. They now have several versions of MOA.

STP® Synthetic Oil Treatment | STP®

STP® Synthetic Oil Treatment combats petrol and diesel engine wear, deposits and oil consumption.

www.stp.com

Valvoline SLOB was some interesting stuff. Its gone. So, is the Ketjenlube 135 Hyperlube ZRA. And, miss the Jojoba oil stuff that HyperLube had before the ZRA. No more LC20 FP60......


If you want to go beyond 10000 miles on your oil/filter, you can do it all by yourself. Don't wait for the oil company or vehicle manufacturer.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

TBN BOOSTER only $39.95 I can do a whole OCI and new filter for a lot less!​

 

[wpod]

TBN BOOSTER only $39.95 I can do a whole OCI and new filter for a lot less!​

And there will be clean oil in the engine!

 

[Malo83]

Just change the oil and be done with it.

 

[Titan]

Wow, that's some high Calcium in that additive. Certainly not one to be used to assist in the fight against pre-detonation...

 

[High Performance Lubricants]

Just a random thought while making the morning coffee:
It's been said here many times that oil is carefully formulated so that the additive pkg is balanced for the intended purpose of the oil, and that OTC additives are not recommended.

And I've read here that HPL may sometimes work up a custom blend for a customer.

Shel_B

Based on experience in our lab I can say that additives do not always work the same across different Formulations. Your comment about the balance is one I would rely on. We spend a lot of effort testing to validate results.

So many things need to be considered when looking towards a long drain. Having the additives working in harmony with the base oil choices and making the correct choices with respect to LSPI and VII to pull it off is not something you can easily add from a bottle without testing. Sure you can make some improvement but if you really want to stretch your legs on a drain cycle it helps to be hitting on all 8.

For Overkill. He was looking for something we already have data on and we’re only making a viscosity change.

David

 

[MolaKule]

Regardless of these many claims, one cannot effect a DI (additive package) replacement.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

I was actually thinking of adding a bottle of CERATEC before my next long journey. My current fill is presently about 50-75% HPL product; filter changes and Fumoto valve partial drainings to see how it looked at the bottom, is why not 100%.

Part of me wonders if I should even bother, the HPL oil is some fine stuff.

This thread somewhat addressed my question of "Does it mix, does it enhance, does it hurt." Especially since I have such a hard time actually leaving oil in the engine, even when I know it is fine.

Just a related (somewhat) hypothetical.. since CERATEC should contain the Mos2.. both those make your oil look like grease and/or Milk Of Magnesia in color, which I dislike.

 

[High Performance Lubricants]

I was actually thinking of adding a bottle of CERATEC before my next long journey. My current fill is presently about 50-75% HPL product; filter changes and Fumoto valve partial drainings to see how it looked at the bottom, is why not 100%.

Part of me wonders if I should even bother, the HPL oil is some fine stuff.

This thread somewhat addressed my question of "Does it mix, does it enhance, does it hurt." Especially since I have such a hard time actually leaving oil in the engine, even when I know it is fine.

Just a related (somewhat) hypothetical.. since CERATEC should contain the Mos2.. both those make your oil look like grease and/or Milk Of Magnesia in color, which I dislike.

I wouldn’t recommending using additives with our oil for the reasons mentioned above. We spend a lot of effort and testing to get it just right.

 

[OVERKILL]

I was actually thinking of adding a bottle of CERATEC before my next long journey. My current fill is presently about 50-75% HPL product; filter changes and Fumoto valve partial drainings to see how it looked at the bottom, is why not 100%.

Part of me wonders if I should even bother, the HPL oil is some fine stuff.

This thread somewhat addressed my question of "Does it mix, does it enhance, does it hurt." Especially since I have such a hard time actually leaving oil in the engine, even when I know it is fine.

Just a related (somewhat) hypothetical.. since CERATEC should contain the Mos2.. both those make your oil look like grease and/or Milk Of Magnesia in color, which I dislike.

Ultimately, oils are fully formulated products. As @MolaKule just very succinctly explained, no product you can dump into the sump can effectively "replace" the DI package. The DI package is developed/selected based on the intended use of the product, and this performance is tested and verified. I'm not going to ask how you arrived at 50-75% concentration of HPL, but Dave has made it abundantly clear that HPL develops and tests for extended service use, that's what the product is formulated for and that's what the additive package is designed around. Adding something to that has a not-insignificant risk of negatively impacting the performance of the product and very low odds of providing any benefit, particularly benefit without some negative effect elsewhere.

I've asked Dave if he would consider authoring a thread on FM selection and interaction because it is something we've discussed at length. The various synergies, interactions and impacts of component selection and their concentrations is a subject I think the collective membership would benefit reading about from somebody who deals with this. I don't think he needs to get into detailed trade secret stuff, but something more than the charts we've seen from XOM on trimer and dimer moly might aide in explaining that there is no replacement for the testing undertaking during product development and results are not always predictable, which is why we must test. Expecting to be able to play backyard chemist and just dump in a bottle of voodoo and it supercharge what's in your sump is breathtakingly naive in that context, but it's marketing, and people get fooled by that unfortunately.

I've said it before: Mobil doesn't sell, and has never sold "Mobil engine oil enhancer", because they sell Mobil 1. Take as long as you need to digest that statement. Most of these products (cough, Lucas, cough) are nothing more than an additional revenue stream. I don't think we need to get into the deception angle of that nonsense in this thread, as it has been well-explained in the past.

 

[High Performance Lubricants]

This is one of the things we will touch on at our open house. I think you should make the trip.

David

 

[edhackett]

Wow, that's some high Calcium in that additive. Certainly not one to be used to assist in the fight against pre-detonation...

Sigh.
Here we go again with that pre-detonation thing. I see a number of members using the term "pre-detonation" when referring to pre-igniton or detonation. Pre-ignition is what happens in an internal combustion engine when fuel is ignited by a hot spot prior to the desired ignition point, resulting in higher than normal cylinder pressures. Detonation in an internal combustion engine is when the fuel explodes rather than burns. The technical definition of an an explosion is when the burn front exceeds the speed of sound. The sound you hear when an engine detonates is the "sonic boom" generated by the supersonic flame front. This also results in extremely high cylinder pressures. Pre-detonation is what happens in an atomic weapon if the sub-critical fuel masses are exposed to stray neutrons and undergo spontaneous fission, destroying the fuel before it can be taken super-critical. Needles to say, but I'm going to say it anyway, this is not what is happening in your engine!

Ed

 

[CR94]

.., I started thinking that it might be nice if an oil manufacturer could provide an additive blend designed for a specific oil that could be added to the sump as the oil gets used and additives become depleted. ...

Besides the fact it would be difficult to maintain a suitable balance of additives that way without extensive testing, as others have explained, how's your magic additive blend going to remove accumulated contaminates from high-mileage oil?

 

[kschachn]

Sigh.
Here we go again with that pre-detonation thing. I see a number of members using the term "pre-detonation" when referring to pre-igniton or detonation. Pre-ignition is what happens in an internal combustion engine when fuel is ignited by a hot spot prior to the desired ignition point, resulting in higher than normal cylinder pressures. Detonation in an internal combustion engine is when the fuel explodes rather than burns. The technical definition of an an explosion is when the burn front exceeds the speed of sound. The sound you hear when an engine detonates is the "sonic boom" generated by the supersonic flame front. This also results in extremely high cylinder pressures. Pre-detonation is what happens in an atomic weapon if the sub-critical fuel masses are exposed to stray neutrons and undergo spontaneous fission, destroying the fuel before it can be taken super-critical. Needles to say, but I'm going to say it anyway, this is not what is happening in your engine!

Ed

Which is also separate from LSPI and with different supposed causes.

 

[Titan]

I see a number of members using the term "pre-detonation" when referring to pre-igniton or detonation. Pre-ignition is what happens in an internal combustion engine when fuel is ignited by a hot spot prior to the desired ignition point, resulting in higher than normal cylinder pressures. Detonation in an internal combustion engine is when the fuel explodes rather than burns.

Thanks for the clarification. I was referring to LSPI, now I can be more precise going forward.

 

[benjy]

as always an interesting read on a cold rainy day for a retired guy that loves to learn. i like BITOG because of its many topics + opinions from guys like myself + really like when a Pro comments!! with factual info