Redline - UOAs
- Thread starter buster
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Buster, I'm glad you posted this again. I've always believed that unless you run a particular oil for at least 2, probably more like 3 OCIs, single UOAs won't allow us amateurs to determine with any accuracy how well any one oil is working compared to the next for any particular engine/driving style/climate unless we see something obvious like a magnitude increase in a few key wear metals.
Hi,
Buster - again, thanks. Of course I have been talking the same talk whilst others here seem to take a different viewpoint
Those persons logging their UOAs displayed here and observing the trends whil;st not having sleepless nights over minor ppm movements are on the right tram!
The UOA movements are a little off beat if differing oils are used but the trend remains!
Keep it going Buster - the GOOD work I mean!
Regards
Doug
Buster - again, thanks. Of course I have been talking the same talk whilst others here seem to take a different viewpoint
Those persons logging their UOAs displayed here and observing the trends whil;st not having sleepless nights over minor ppm movements are on the right tram!
The UOA movements are a little off beat if differing oils are used but the trend remains!
Keep it going Buster - the GOOD work I mean!
Regards
Doug
I completely agree Doug. Different oils with different chemistries with different drivers. There are some apples to apples comparisons but there are many variables that are in play with these things. Some oils are better then others and some work better in particular engines. I don't sweat small variaces in wear metals that we see here. Like you said, we are dealing in ppm!
Of course that is basically correct as is the first UOA on a car and you find a head gasket leak or something.....
What Dave states is consistant with what others have said in that RL's aggressive chemistry takes wear and other metal particals and puts them into suspension while putting down it's own layer. I have a hard time believing RL is anything but an outstanding oil. It's reputation is too good among top racers in all forms.
I put in RL 5W-30 in my 2001 Honda Prelude as per Terry Dyson's recommendation, and it made a huge difference. The engine idles much smoother, revs faster, and just feels better. Today I had to accelerate umm, "briskly" to clear an intersection, and normally I change gears by the sound of the engine. This time I hit the rev limiter at 8300RPM because the engine was so much quieter and smoother, didn't vibrate as much, so I didn't know when to shift just by listening to it. I've used Amsoil 5W-30, Amsoil 0W-30, Motul 0W-40 and RedLine 5W-30 is by far the best oil I've used, judging by the engine smoothness, responsiveness, and my own butt dyno.
My butt dyno said Redline 5W30 the best oil overall in my Outback but Delac 1 5W40 was a touch quiter (but then it is much thicker). Best economy by far with the Redline by the way.
I always thought that a good oil will hold particles in suspension, thus when you see a UOA of a "good" oil it might likely have more ppm's of "stuff" in it. Cheaper oils that do not hold particles in suspension would have lower ppm readings. I think there is a lot to consider when looking at UOA data, much of the important stuff is likely not evident in the UOA data. An engine can also shed larger bits of metal which likely settle the bottom of the oil pan which you don't measure in a UOA. I am sure Redline has performed some pretty detailed wear analysis of their own and have come up with a formula that really works , but our methods of judging the oil isnt all that accurate.
When large companies such as Detroit Diesel do wear tests on their engines, they collect all the metal particles that come off the engine not just what is suspended in the oil. That is the real way to judge engine wear and of course it's beyond our cababilities. I think I'd rather put my trust in companies like Redline than take low cost oil analysis data for granted.
When large companies such as Detroit Diesel do wear tests on their engines, they collect all the metal particles that come off the engine not just what is suspended in the oil. That is the real way to judge engine wear and of course it's beyond our cababilities. I think I'd rather put my trust in companies like Redline than take low cost oil analysis data for granted.
I think it comes down to a combination of information.
The UOA with an interpitation.
The motor it came out of and general knowledge of how it treats oil.
What was run previously and how long.
Adjusting for known adverse conditions, cold weather, short trips etc.
The UOA with an interpitation.
The motor it came out of and general knowledge of how it treats oil.
What was run previously and how long.
Adjusting for known adverse conditions, cold weather, short trips etc.
I still have a little bit of trouble with the implied logic of all this. If a Valvoline oil results in a so-so UOA result then the Greek Chorus talks about what a marginal oil Valvoline makes, etc. etc. etc.
However, if a Redline oil results in the same posted number then the Chorus informs us that this is due to the superior nature of Redline and so on.
This issue then becomes that many people here trust Redline and do not trust Valvoline ... which takes us out of the domain of objective analysis and into personal biases and feelings.
If Redline or another company has sophisticated test data demonstrating the superiority of their product compared to other things on the market then why don't they publish it? All we as consumers ever get from *ANY* motor oil seller are suspect testimonials and weasel worded marketing hu-ha.
John
[ April 06, 2004, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: jthorner ]
However, if a Redline oil results in the same posted number then the Chorus informs us that this is due to the superior nature of Redline and so on.
This issue then becomes that many people here trust Redline and do not trust Valvoline ... which takes us out of the domain of objective analysis and into personal biases and feelings.
If Redline or another company has sophisticated test data demonstrating the superiority of their product compared to other things on the market then why don't they publish it? All we as consumers ever get from *ANY* motor oil seller are suspect testimonials and weasel worded marketing hu-ha.
John
[ April 06, 2004, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: jthorner ]
Check out the numerous RL UOA's here and make up your own mind then..s
I think many trust RL bc some of the more knowledgable people on here do like it. RL has an excellent reputation in the racing world. I have mixed feelings about it being it's $8qt. But again, UOA's really need to be looked at by Terry or someone trained in this field bc RL is hard to read.
I spoke with Darren Wallace today from Amsoil. Told him about what we see with Redline and he is fully aware of it. He said that they get Redline UOA's in their Lab, OAI, and he never was impressed with it. He said the amount of POE they are using creates hydroscopic instability in the oil, and the wear metals sky rocket. I do realize he wouldn't tell me if it were a cost issue, but if that were so, Amsoil S2k should be more POE then as it's $8.35qt. Not to mention their lab sees all kinds of oils go through it so I'm sure they are aware of it. He said they use POE in their oils, just not at the same level as RL.
[ April 23, 2004, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
[ April 23, 2004, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
I have had Red Line 5W30 in my wife's 2000 Mazda. This is literally a low mileage driven, short, 6 mile trips to town. 14K miles since new. I am approaching 3k on this oil and will do an analysis with an interpetation by Terry Dyson.
I have redline 5w30 in my truck, but it will be a while before I can post any results. I really like the way the engine runs on redline.
Patman
Staff member
I can't wait to see both of your Redline reports! I want to see more of them on here, I do believe Redline is very good stuff but yet it gets a bad rap on here sometimes.
I agree but lets look at something. Patman, you tell people to run oils like GC and Amsoil in LS1's because lead or iron in many cases is a FEW ppm lower, and sometimes not at all. Few meaning 5-15ppm. Then we see RL that shows depleted TBN and very high pb that doesn't always stablize, yet you praise it. To me that doesn't make sense. I don't mean to point you out specifically, as we all do this at times, but the point is, I think many excuses are made for RL as well.
I have both cars runnin RL and will sample at 10K on both. We should have a flurry of RL UOAs later this year.....
I'd highly recommend you use the Dyson package through Blackstone. He is very familiar with RL and can give you the proper read, which is really necessary with these reports.
I second that!
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