Redline PS Fluid 4k miles

[Titanium_Alloy]

Hi guys,

Finally I got my result from Blackstone. It took 3 weeks for the mail to deliver the sample. This is a Redline Power Steering Fluid. I changed it from a factory filled about 10-11 months ago. Pontiac Grand AM with 2.2L engine. Factory fluid was black and looked heavily oxidized at 18.5k miles. This sample was taken at approximately 22.3k miles. I changed fluid using turkey buster method for reservoir. System takes .7 liter; in total I put through the system 1.5 liters.

I decided to sample this fluid because steering just didn't feel right. It wasn't smooth; I could literally feel how components worked. This Redline fluid after 4k miles looked very, very dark, almost black. I didn't expect such poor result form it considering it was slightly pink new.

I changed fluid to Valvoline Synpower Blend PSF. I put 2 quarts through the system using drain-refill. I also added a bottle of Lubegard Power Steering Protectant. Now steering feels like I always thought it should - very soft, smooth, and quiet operation. Although I generally dislike Valvoline products this particular one exceeded my expectations. Way better than Redline. I highly recommend Synpower to anyone who has a car which calls for GM approved PS fluid.

I'll try to get refund from Redline. At least I got my analysis to confirm its performance. No more Redline products for me.

From now on I'll just stay with recommended and approved lubricants from major oil companies. That was enough experimenting for me... (Especially with Redline products).

As a side note: Additive levels seem quite high. It would be interesting to see VOA on Honda and Pentosin power steering fluids. If anyone could do it it would be great.

Comments from Blackstone are below.

Regards,


First column - tested result. Second - averages.

code:

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ALUMINUM 1 2

CHROMIUM 0 1

IRON 15 32

COPPER 20* (flagged) 2

LEAD 3 1

TIN 0 0

MOLYBDENUM 2 0

NICKEL 0 0

MANGANESE 3 0

SILVER 0 0

TITANIUM 0 0

POTASSIUM 0 0

BORON 24 20

SILICON 24* (flagged) 4

SODIUM 7 1

CALCIUM 2695 21 ???

MAGNESIUM 12 10

PHOSPHORUS 2191 297 ???

ZINC 2789 245 ???

BARIUM 0 1

---

Viscosity: 46.8 SUS
Flashpoint: 420 F (pretty good)
Insolubles: 0.3* (flagged)

This could be factory fill fluid, so we don't know if the silicon is from silicone used on parts at the factory, or if it is abrasive dirt contamination. Universal average's show typical wear from a power steering system. Copper (bronze parts) was high in your sample but the other metals appear at normal level. Insolubles were quite high, so this 10W oil appears oxidized. No moisture found.
Suggest having this P.S. fluid changed out to reset the metals and to get rid of the insolubles, which are probably free carbon, and which are probably abrasive.

 

[Al]

Are you sure you used the right stuff? GM vehicles require conventional PS fluid as compared to other manufactures who require Dextron\ III

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

Here is my earlier post from Aug. 2003. Just before I changed fluid. Redline claims that it can be used in GM units, I also talked to Dave and he confirmed it.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000512

 

[RichR]

I also had scortched PS fluid using Red Line.
It was in a '98 Dodge Diesel which use a hydro boost p/s pump for brakes.

 

[benjamming]

I have used Redline PS fluid in my '94 Pontiac Grand Am 3.1L. The power steering fluid had never been changed with 133k miles on it. I used the turkey baster method. I changed 8 oz., drove 500 miles, changed another 8 oz., drove 1000 miles, and changed 8 oz. again. I didn't analyze any of the fluids. Boy, do I wish I had now!

The original fluid was very dark. The first change of Redline was dark. The last change of Redline didn't look that bad. Of course, I was comparing to the original factory fill.

 

[Ken4]

quote:

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Originally posted by Titanium_Alloy:

COPPER 20* (flagged) 2

---

That's nothing. I had 1770ppm Cu in my sample.

 

[Pablo]

I honestly think this is insufficient info. to condemn Redline. I think it's just cleaning things up. Maybe flush and try again.

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pablo:
I honestly think this is insufficient info. to condemn Redline. I think it's just cleaning things up. Maybe flush and try again.

---

I would think so too. But the problem is that oil has only 4k miles and I did drain-refills during a period of about 2-3 weeks. I know for a fact that the oil was clean when I did last drain fill and it was clean a few months later. This PS fluid was very dark and, as I said, new was just a bit pink. I don't race the car or drive it in a really hard conditions for PS system. I think that such result is unacceptable for 4k miles.

Besides, Valvoline SynPower PSF changed steering feeling significantly for the better. I could feel the difference from first drain-refill with it. Honestly, I was simply amazed with it. Redline might work OK in systems calling for ATF but it didn't work well in my car as you can see. I'm also worried about insolubles and additive levels. Redline seems to have 10 times more Calcium, Phosphorus, and Zinc compared to a regular PS fluid. I don't think that does any good.

[ June 30, 2004, 04:20 AM: Message edited by: Titanium_Alloy ]

 

[Pablo]

TiAlloy - you make a good point about the additives....I was thinking it was a typo and then I didn't mention it in my post. Have you asked the lab or Redline about those high ppms?

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

I don't get it? What's the problem? Like Pablo said clean-up is a high probability. I would be concerned more about why was factory fluid toast at 18.5k miles???
Copper is a soft metal and past wear will be "scavenged" by Red Line PE esters (haven't you been here for a while). Iron is actually lower than avg. What is avg interval anyway?
Insolubles? Clean-up, if the factory fluid was as bad as you say...
The viscosity is good.

I still plan on switching out my GM PSF out with RL. Going to try and do it soon.
I have to say it worked great in my BMW.

 

[TheTanSedan]

I changed our JEEP over to REDLINE Power Steering Fluid about 20k ago. Also added cooler (slight overkill) and MAGNEFINE Inline Filter.

Fluid looks nearly as new -- slightly darker -- and smells the same. Mileage covered is 55k thru 75k. Old fluid had 30k on it.

ARX was run final 1k in system prior to change.

I doubt the "turkey baster" method is thorough, and that the REDLINE is having to clean up a mess.

I've always had a helper to cycle the motor and steering wheel lock-to-lock (front wheels up in the air), and add fluid as necessary, flushing through an amount about double the capacity of new no-name cheap fluid prior to final fill.

The inline screen -- if so equipped -- should also be serviced.

I set mine up so that the MAGNEFINE filter is easily accessible; I need only release the intake line (it is slightly long for this purpose) and let it empty into container.

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

I honestly don't have any idea if Redline was doing any cleaning. I don't think we can attribute such severe color change just because of cleaning action. I'm not as much worried about silicon as much as about copper and insolubles. Bror Jace is right. It also seems to me that Redline is too thin for my PS system. I was looking for best protection-feeling-change interval. Redline can possibly give protection, but I'm not so sure about change interval, and certainly not the feeling. Synpower gave me even better feeling than factory filled fluid.

 

[sbc350gearhead]

Have you tried RP max-ez? It works much better in my truck, than valvoline synpower PSF did. I had a great deal of pump noise with the valvoline...........but not as much as with the stock fluid. With the RP, it is completely silent.

 

[Bror Jace]

I have to agree with the others that the results here are inconclusive.

The high silicon is most likely Red Line's anti-foaming additive.

The high additives are typical Red Line ... and part of what you pay for when you buy their oil.

The sudden darkening is most likey the esters in the formula cleaning out what the factory oil left behind ... and you admit that it was very dirty despite having less than 20,000 miles on it.

Did you have to add any in the 4,000 miles? If so, this might suggest a problem with seals.

I'm no power steering expert, but isn't leaking seals the #1 cause for replacement racks?

Bottom line, Titanium Alloy, is that the Red Line fluid may be formulated a little too thin for your application. If you say you can feel/hear the difference in the way the power steering system operates, I wouldn't use this stuff if I were you either. It's probably formulated primarily for racers who want a thin fluid to minimize power-robbing drag on the power steering pump. Red Line would then compensate for this thin hydrodynmic barrier with their over-the-top additive package.

Anyway, it looks like you gave your system a pretty exotic/elaborate flush, though.

--- Bror Jace

 

[Bror Jace]

"I honestly don't have any idea if Red Line was doing any cleaning. I don't think we can attribute such severe color change just because of cleaning action. I'm not as much worried about silicon as much as about copper and insolubles."

Well, if it wasn't cleaning, what could have caused the discoloration?

Does anyone here seriously believe that it could be oxidation ... especially that quickly? This stuff (on paper) uses one of the best base oils available and this application isn’t a terribly taxing one (heat not terribly intense and no byproducts of combustion).

Wear is also unlikely to cause this kind of discoloration. Look at the copper and iron together. 15 + 20 = 35PPM ... which shouldn't cause the fluid to be very dark. Insolubles are high ... which is a likely sign of cleaning after so few miles.

I think you have to at least lean towards "cleaning" as a theory because no other one seems likely ... unless you think Red Line is a crooked company selling products of markedly inferior quality ... and I ruled this out a long time ago.

But the question with Red Line's products remains unsolved. It appears that the aggressive polyol chemistry may be doing more than just deposit removal. So is it's ability to prevent wear worth going through this initial "cleaning" phase?

Terry says it is and these elevated metal counts will stabilize over time ... and he scrutinizes a lot more UOAs than nearly any of us here.

Me? I just couldn't wait that long so I switched my car's engine over to Schaeffer. Now I just use Red Line's gear oils and (occasionally) their fuel system cleaner.

--- Bror Jace

 

[unDummy]

I don't believe your flush was complete. I also do believe that there could've been some cleaning.

If you feel that the your drain/refill is acceptable for comparative analysis, then do the same with water and gasoline. Fill a container with gasoline and siphon/refill with several ounces of water. Shake and drink. Let me know how many dozens of gallons of water is wasted before you can safely drink from the container originally filled with gas.

Drain/refill is great preventive maintenance and nothing else. In no way should you think that you can get 100% of the fluid out this way.

If you want to UOA PS fluid, invest in a PS fluid displacement flush. This is similar to the ATF flush machines out there. Provide at least 6 quarts of your choice of PS fluid since the machine will usually waste about 2-3 quarts of PS fluid. Take vehicle for ride with many turns and repeat. Then, drive for an interval and UOA that PS fluid.

My drain/refill interval, of all my vehicles and vehicles that I maintain, is at EVERY oil change regardless of fluid chosen. Its only a pint and and extra 5 minutes of time.