Redline Oil 5w30 -- 5,005 miles -- 07 Civic Si

[Artem]

This is the second sample from Redline Oil @ 5,005 miles

The first sample @ 3,500 miles can be seen HERE - Redline oil 3,472 UOA

After pulling the original sample it left me with a low oil level and since i didn't have anymore New Redline oil to top off, i added a quart of USED Redline from a previous fill. (The UOA also posted)

That used oil had a TBN of 7.2 after 3,000 miles so i figured it would serve as excellent top off and i wouldn't be adding fresh oil, diluting the results of the second sample.

The sample was pulled within 15 mins of shutting the engine off after an 850 mile highway trip... I overshot my sample goal by 5 miles

After a few day post sampling, i drained the oil without waiting for the UOA results because 5,1xx miles (at the time) was the most i was willing to go on this oil, regardless of how good it looked on paper.

The engine was down a full quart during the OC, this being the most it's ever burned in 1,500 miles since the last top off. I honestly don't know why since i expected the highway miles to be relatively easy on the oil, minus some VERY spirited driving in the North Carolina mountains.

I'm now running a fill of 50/50 Amsoil OE & XL to flush out any remaining Redline oil before proceeding to try another oil. I noticed the engine got ALLOT louder within 20 miles of having Amsoil pumping through the system. Perhaps Redline had a nice thick film between engine parts, muffling the sound a bit better then the 'energy conserving' Amsoil. Who knows.

I plan to dump the oil in a few hundred miles (and recycle it, of course) in favor of Amsoil Euro 5w30. I'll see if engine noise subsides with the thicker Euro spec oil.

I was originally planning to put in the Signature Series Amsoil ASL for comparison but i need to use up this case of Euro blend because i have nothing else to do with it (the original buyer i had lined up for it fell through

)

Cheers

 

[Artem]

I forgot to post my own personal comment on the UOA...

First off, Blackstone messed up the 'mileage on the unit'. I sent them an email asking for a corrected UOA for my personal records.

I also included a separate piece of paper full of just Engine related modifications but they still failed to include that info in the UOA report

Not enough space i guess. Haha.

As much as some of you will say that the 7 & 9ppm increase in wear metals is; "nothing to worry about, its just a cheap UOA, the engine is fine, just look at that TBN, blah blah blah" I personally take it serious as i feel the engine did sustain a tiny bit more wear then usual with the slightly longer oil run. (i could be wrong so please educate me!)

Again my defensive argument is that i'm sure the oil can keep protecting your average engine which is driven normally for an additional 5,000 miles post this UOA but in a car that is modified and beat on daily, revving to 8,600rpm with the gas pedal buried DEEEEEP in the carpet, i just don't feel its a good idea to be extending the OCIs because supposedly, there's more life left in the oil. I just don't buy it, sorry guys.

I do plan to recycled the now already recycled oil for further use in my 98 Camry for maybe a 3,000 mile run, just for kicks and giggles, so that no TBN goes to waste, so you obsessive tree huggers can sleep easy at night.

I will return to my wasteful 3,000 mile OCIs with this particular car.

Recycling the oil after the Si is done with it.

 

[Ben99GT]

I think you are the perfect candidate for a Terry Dyson analysis.

 

[Artem]

How so...? Please explain.

 

[Ben99GT]

Go to Dyson analysis (.com) and check it out. If you want someone who knows enough to understand what's likely going on (one of the few who has a extensive experience and understanding of ester oil UOA interpretation), and who would be willing to help you understand what's going on, he's your man.

Since you seem to want someone to really break down the UOA and get some solid recommendations based off it, I think you would benefit from Terry Dyson's service. It's fairly expensive, but I think you would appreciate it.

IMHO, Blackstone's comments aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

 

[Artem]

Thank you for the advice. I've heard a lot about Terry and will look into it.

 

[ltslimjim]

Artem, I know the Civic is fun to drive; especially an Si, but just because you may drive the car hard doesn't necessarily mean that alone is truly race conditions for the oil. On top of that, Red Line is an oil made for racing. If I were in your shoes as a for instance only, I'd feel very comfortable with 5,000 mile oil changes using Red Line and staying topped off.

Yet, I'd still feel like I'd be wasting the oil since I don't have another vehicle to use it in like you do.

Anyways, the higher TAN is probably from a group V oil that has a higher starting TAN virgin. Also, some oil consumption isn't unnatural going over to Red Line from a PAO base.

I'm not saying driving the car hard will/wont increase wear, because it depends on many factors and not that alone. Someone that drives a vehicle very smoothly/ and gently overall may have higher wear than you, if they don't drive the vehicle enough. Say, every 6 months on dino oil with less than 2,000 miles will probably have higher ppm in wear metals than you do here in the same app. Does it look worse on paper if that is so? Sure. Does that mean anything bad? Not necessarily.

Your Si here is driven often. That in of itself can sometimes be enough to allow it to wear normally, last longer than another vehicle not driven as often; mileage wise. Your car will not fail thousands or even 1,000 miles shorter in 'life-expectancy' from your choice of oil in what you have done so far. Now, changing the type of oil every oil change and anything shorter than 3,000 miles may on the other hand, but that's another topic for discussion.

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Artem, I know the Civic is fun to drive; especially an Si, but just because you may drive the car hard doesn't necessarily mean that alone is truly race conditions for the oil. On top of that, Red Line is an oil made for racing. If I were in your shoes as a for instance only, I'd feel very comfortable with 5,000 mile oil changes using Red Line and staying topped off.

I'm not saying that my highway trips or even my abuse city sprints around town are necessarily 'race' conditions per se, simply that during those drives, the engine does see MUCH harsher conditions then say the same car driven spirited by another person (I service 12 8th gen civics, mostly modified Si buddies and they can confirm that my driving style is VERY abuse and they're surprised the car lasted 100k of this without breaking, Haha) Yea, it's a HONDA, i know

Yet, I'd still feel like I'd be wasting the oil since I don't have another vehicle to use it in like you do.

It makes me feel better about myself since i'm not wasting any oil because of my recycling technique.

Anyways, the higher TAN is probably from a group V oil that has a higher starting TAN virgin. Also, some oil consumption isn't unnatural going over to Red Line from a PAO base.

The engine has been burning about a quart every 3,000 miles since it had 3.0 miles on it, outta the dealership. (that's with my everyday aggressive driving which hasn't changed from day 1, it would burn less then half a quart during mostly highway miles))

It burned the same amount during the first and second fill of Redline and for some unknown reason burned a lot more in the last 1,500 miles then ever before. I'm not saying it's the oil itself causing this @ 5,000 miles. It could very well be that the engine started burning massive amounts of oil all of the sudden, i'll see what happens with the next oil.

I'm not saying driving the car hard will/wont increase wear, because it depends on many factors and not that alone. Someone that drives a vehicle very smoothly/ and gently overall may have higher wear than you, if they don't drive the vehicle enough. Say, every 6 months on dino oil with less than 2,000 miles will probably have higher ppm in wear metals than you do here in the same app. Does it look worse on paper if that is so? Sure. Does that mean anything bad? Not necessarily.

A ton more Cold starts per OCI will result with more wear, that i agree with.

Your Si here is driven often. That in of itself can sometimes be enough to allow it to wear normally, last longer than another vehicle not driven as often; mileage wise. Your car will not fail thousands or even 1,000 miles shorter in 'life-expectancy' from your choice of oil in what you have done so far. Now, changing the type of oil every oil change and anything shorter than 3,000 miles may on the other hand, but that's another topic for discussion.

I'm not driving it around waiting for the motor to completely blow up and destroy itself into smithereens. The point at which i will pull the block to rebuild / upgrade to a 2.4L bottom end with my Si's head will be when the engine starts burning massive amounts of oil / starts spewing clouds of smoke outta the tailpipe. That moment will come when the piston rings wear out. I choose to keep a 3k OCI to always have fresh oil in the block, trying to lube everything as best as possible to keep the inevitable from happening a few thousand miles sooner rather then later. $30 in oil < $4,000 engine overhaul.

Sure with the amount of money saved on oil changes with say 5-6k OCIs could have bought me a new engine by now but i feel i would have burned through the block by 50,000 miles with that maintenance schedule + SEVERE service. I'm @ 100k and the engine seems to be holding up great thus far. The Chassis sees a LOT of highway miles so i expect to have 300,000 miles on it and still be ripping it up at the track years from now.

When i bought this car, i expected i'd have to replace the block by 100k if it even makes it there. This engine has went well beyond my expectations. Who knows, maybe its the use of such expensive boutique oils in a "Honda" all these years

At this point its now a mission for me to see just how much abuse this block can take before calling it quits on me. I highly doubt it'll see 200k though, I've been craving more power lately so a feel an engine upgrade will be in the works very soon hence why i decided to try and see what extending my OCIs will do...

 

[Artem]

I realize a little bit of varnish isn't hurting anything but just for experimental sake, i want a member from here, "JoefromPA" to pull the valve cover off of his Si with 100k which has seen 10-15k OCIs with synthetics and compare engine cleanliness to my 3k OCIs.

^This is something that i'm very interested in seeing. I've talked to Joe while he was still coming up on 100k at which point he said he'll break into the block to adjust the valves, replace the spark plugs, etc and take pics of the internals for me but its been a few months now and no response from him...

 

[ltslimjim]

Admit it: You wish your Si had over 200 HP stock like the latest one.

 

[Artem]

Are you kidding me? The 8th gen is rated @ 197hp stock vs the 9th gen @ 200 crack HP.

In its current state, my 07 Si coupe is faster then the 9th gen. It's making far more WHP

Besides, the new k24 in the 9th gen Si sucks. I'll take my 8,600 rpm rev limit over 7,000rpm that the new Si has. The noises the engine produces at those engine speeds is mind blowing.

My fully built k24 bottom end will rev to 8,500 after all is said and done and should easily put me @ 300whp

 

[ltslimjim]

I was just kidding, have you seen the commercial with the Asian gal driving the latest Si? I just thought it was funny. It was shown on the big screen at the movies recently as part of the 'pre' previews.

I knew your car was putting out more than stock from what you've said before.

It seems the idea behind the latest engine in the Si is to get more power at a lower RPM, kinda migrating to mimic American muscle cars. I just thought an Si was great at the way it was already done. I wonder how this will affect how much headroom it has for modding, especially if the rev limiter is that low for redlining the car(no pun intended)?

 

[Artem]

The new Si now has an exhaust manifold that is integrated into the head, making ay decent power improvements rather hard. A complete head swap from older 2.0L high revving K series engine is a must ($$$)

I'm all up for more low end torque but not at this expense.

 

[ltslimjim]

I see. Curious, what is your time in the 1/4 mile?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Artem
Are you kidding me? The 8th gen is rated @ 197hp stock vs the 9th gen @ 200 crack HP.

In its current state, my 07 Si coupe is faster then the 9th gen. It's making far more WHP

Besides, the new k24 in the 9th gen Si sucks. I'll take my 8,600 rpm rev limit over 7,000rpm that the new Si has. The noises the engine produces at those engine speeds is mind blowing.

My fully built k24 bottom end will rev to 8,500 after all is said and done and should easily put me @ 300whp


What does yours currently make to the tires? I assume stock they make ~170HP correct?

What kind of mods are done to the K24 to cause it to make 230HP more than your current engine? Obviously a lot more than the simple .4L displacement bump....

 

[baddrummerboyy]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Artem
Are you kidding me? The 8th gen is rated @ 197hp stock vs the 9th gen @ 200 crack HP.

In its current state, my 07 Si coupe is faster then the 9th gen. It's making far more WHP

Besides, the new k24 in the 9th gen Si sucks. I'll take my 8,600 rpm rev limit over 7,000rpm that the new Si has. The noises the engine produces at those engine speeds is mind blowing.

My fully built k24 bottom end will rev to 8,500 after all is said and done and should easily put me @ 300whp


What does yours currently make to the tires? I assume stock they make ~170HP correct?

What kind of mods are done to the K24 to cause it to make 230HP more than your current engine? Obviously a lot more than the simple .4L displacement bump....


I am about 250hp right now with the stock K20 engine with bolt-on. I have intake, race header, exhaust, 08 Acura TSX camshaft(OEM camshaft), throttle body, Hondata, port match intake manifold, and dyno tuned.

A 2.4L with more aggressive cams and piston will easily hit 300whp.

 

[Artem]

Where are you getting 230hp from? The 9th gen Si is rated at 200hp stock. That's 3 mode then the 8th gen was (197hp)

Mines sitting at 214whp at the same dyno it put down 171whp stock. (Those are the corrected numbers.) Mods; custom intake, race header, 2.5" exhaust, light weight pulleys, and dyno tuned.

 

[Artem]

Thanks for the graph, nice mods and power numbers.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: baddrummerboyy
A 2.4L with more aggressive cams and piston will easily hit 300whp.


It usually takes head work and bumped compression to hit 300 whp from what I've seen.

Quote:



Make that on a DynoJet and I'll believe it. I know a K20 car that runs E85, worked head, 13:1, etc., runs 11s N/A and only makes 230 whp on a DynoJet. I'm not saying that DynoJets read more conservatively, only that they're harder to fudge.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Artem
Where are you getting 230hp from? The 9th gen Si is rated at 200hp stock. That's 3 mode then the 8th gen was (197hp)

Mines sitting at 214whp at the same dyno it put down 171whp stock. (Those are the corrected numbers.) Mods; custom intake, race header, 2.5" exhaust, light weight pulleys, and dyno tuned.


I must have been having a moment, that number should have been 148HP.

So you expect to pick up 100HP with a .4L displacement bump? Or are there other mods taking place at the same time? (I'm just curious here).

I'm not into the Honda stuff, so please pardon my ignorance.