Redline MTL in Nissan

[Spector]

Good analysis but gear oils are suppsoed to go 15,000-30,000 miles at least before being changed out. So an analysis at 6600 does not seem that impressive. What am I missing here? The MTL is the lighter of gorup if I remember correctly. 75W90, then a MTL-90 then MTL.

 

[MolaKule]

Spector, I dunno, what are you looking for? The reason for this analysis at the mileage indicated was to determine relative wear, tbn, and tan between Amsoil TGR (which I used in the past), and Redline MTL at approx. the same mileage. If the wear metals appeared to be low with RL, I would continue to use Redline out to at least 10k and then resample, which I will do. The plan is to also run some Scaheffer's gear lubes this summer and make similar comparisons. Again, I am always looking for the best price/performance ratio, hence the short-term tests. In addition, I hope that other's might benefit from the comparitive analyses. I hope that others will send in their UOA's for GL's as well.

 

[Bror Jace]

I figured 'Kule was using short durations for that reason ... comparison testing. If he left it in there for 30K or more miles, it would be years between samples and tests. I know I appreciate the data ... and it saves me from getting mine tested. I think I have 30,000 miles on mine ... or close to that. We'd all like to think that we can make a fairly linear projection out to 25,000-30,000 or more miles as to how well the gear oil will hold up. This is often true ... but not always. We've seen fluids hold up for a while and then their performance just drops off a cliff for one reason or another. Last time I saw a bottle, Red Line MTL was classified as a 70W80 but I believe it was a 75W80 or 70W85 just a couple years ago. Now, we need someone to test Honda MTF, Pennzoil & GM's synchromesh fluid ... not to mention BG Synchroshift, the comparable Royal Purple lube ... 'Kule, what does your Nissan truck call for? I'd guess something like 75W90, which would have made MT-90 a better match. Not that you have much to complain about with that MTL. --- Bror Jace

 

[Pablo]

First of all I like MTL. I use it!! Now Mr. Defense kicks in. I am going to write this and duck quickly This kind of data is good, and it is data, but - I cannot conclude that Amsoil actually caused more wear in less miles with less load. What was in the tranny before? What, perhaps did the Amsoil clean out? What if the test was started with MTL? How many shifts were missed? How was the sample taken? Yes I'm a biased buttboy - but I have TGR in my rear end right now. I'll sample at 50 K miles (in about 6K miles) Why was the cebu sad? Was it a aluminum or wooden canoe? oh sorry I've been listening to the kids music too much.

 

[MolaKule]

Analysis Courtesy of Dyson Analaysis Customer Name : Oil Brand/Weight : Redline MTL Type Equipment : [2001] Frontier 5-speed Transmission Miles/Hours on oil : 6600 Total Miles/Hours : 54200 Results ppm/% Comments (blank=normal) Wear Copper 1 Iron 38 Chromium 0 Lead 6 Aluminum 8 Silicon 14 Tin 0 Additives Boron [78] Molybdenum 4 Sodium 4 Magnesium 6 Zinc 2420 Potassium 9 Phosphorus 2340 Calcium 2540 Physical Properties Water negative Fuel negative scale negative,trace,positive Antifreeze negative Soot NA Oxidation NA scale 0-199 Nitration NA scale 0-199 Sulfur NA TBN 12 Very Robust [email protected] C 11.5 TAN 0.9 Particle count ISO 19/14, > 5ppm4632, >10ppm 624, > 15ppm 87, > 20ppm 27 >25ppm 12, > 50ppm 2, >75ppm2,> 100ppm 0. Terry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My Comments: I am very happy with the wear metals, the tbn, and the TAN. The viscosity reduction was minor. This Redline gear oil went 1.5 k more than the Amsoil TGR and had about 1/4 iron wear, and there were no loads hauled with the Amsoil in the tranny. The mini-truck made four hauling trips for wood (750 pounds each) during this interval at 70 mph for 325 miles each with the Redline. If any new info comes in, we will post it. [ February 10, 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[Bror Jace]

Well, I guess the question of whether MTL has any moly in it (posted recently in the gear oil sub section) is answered. It appears that MTL uses lots of ZDDP and some boron compounds for barrier anti-wear protection. Hey, whatever they used, it sure worked well. --- Bror Jace

 

[Spector]

I use the MT90 and this month will be going to a 50-50 mix of Mt90 and MTL. I have not had it analyzed but I can tell you that the MT90 was a world of improvement over the Amsoil I had previously in this 6 spd. Cold shifting improved 100% with the MT90 and I expect it to improve with the 50-50 cocktail.

 

[Bror Jace]

I think your right about the limitations of analysis, Pablo but 'Kule has every right to be pleased with his results. The Amsoil could have cleaned up old deposits and held them in suspension ... but I think that's more likely to happen with a more ester-intensive formula like Red Line, Synergen and NEO. --- Bror Jace

 

[Pablo]

Bror - just curious why you think the gear oils listed have more esters that TGR? (TGR is the premium Series 2000 75W-90)

 

[MolaKule]

Pablo, The three previous oils were the Nissan factory stuff and two TGR's. The two prior TGR reports (from OAI) showed about 25 ppm/1k, which is why (pardon the pun) I "shifted over" to MTL. Now as I stated to TooSlick previously, it could be due to the other (prior) lubes cleaning up the case and picking up more residual iron from run-in. The next test will show whether the case is clean and whether MTL can show some consistency. I do know the shifting is smoother (in all temps)and there is less gear whine with the MTL than with the other fluids. I too suspect more PE type polyol esters are in this fluid (%-wise) than in the S2000 TGR.

 

[Bror Jace]

Oops, that was an Amsoil generalization on my part. The other oils I listed are primarily ester based. I've always thought of Amsoil as having more PAO than ester. Is this incorrect? --- Bror Jace

 

[Pablo]

I THINK the Series 2000 gear oils have more POE's than the "regular" Amsoil syn. gear oils - but I have NO idea how much vs. Redline, et al [ February 11, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

 

[V1]

Hi guys. I know I'm just bit late to chime in here, but I think you'll understand. I have some MT90 in my Mazda6 5-speed. It's been there for about 12k miles. I did notice improvements with MT90 over the factory fill, and the fluid still seems to be doing it's job. I'm sure I could keep it in there for another 12k without trouble. But, I recently developed an itch to replace it with some new MT90 so I can sample UOA and what not. You know how that goes. I'll be sending the old stuff in for analysis and posting in this section. See you then.

 

[Al]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spector: I use the MT90 and this month will be going to a 50-50 mix of Mt90 and MTL. I have not had it analyzed but I can tell you that the MT90 was a world of improvement over the Amsoil I had previously in this 6 spd. Cold shifting improved 100% with the MT90 and I expect it to improve with the 50-50 cocktail.

---

That's what most of the kids with their Sentrta SPEV-V's run. I have not tested my Gear/Tranny/or Punkins tested..I just have never had a problem with them in 44 years of driving. I know its no excuse..but everyone operatres with their own guidelines. I feel if I change any of thim in less than 40K or so that's overdoing it. I have gone over 100K with no metal fines on the mag plugs. AutoTrannies..another story. I change out 50% ervery 15K jor so, (Oh and I take samples for analysis. But back to the thread....looks great. Probably a waste to ever sample again unless there is some specific reason to.

 

[oilyriser]

that analysis almost looks like a motor oil

 

[Anthony]

My 04 frontier calls for 75w85 but since mt90 worked so great in my 97 hardbody I decided to try it in my new tranny in the frontier which had about 1300 miles on it. At first the shifts were very smooth but became very notchy so after about 400 miles of use with mt90 I decided to go back to factory nissan 75w85 and its very smooth and still getting smoother since the tranny is breaking in. New tranny has about 2500 miles on it now. Could the mt90 affect proper break in? I am planning on trying the new amsoil mtg in about 4000 miles. Does anyone know if my 97 harbody 4 banger 5 speed and my 04 frontier 5 speed share he same tranny? I heard they were but am not sure but that is the reason I decided to try mt90 since it worked great in the hardbody.

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

I've been running Redline MTL [ Acuras ] . MT-90 [BMW, and VW], and 75W-90ns [ Subarus] for many years. I think 8 years. My change interval has been every 50K. I think the stuff works great in all conditions. I have been switching the new cars to Redline at 15K, after I feel I have no warranty issues with the vehicle.

 

[V1]

Very reassuring about Redline "twbg"! I truly believe that the load MT90 I've been sitting on for 12,000 miles still has eons of life left in it. There is nothing alarmingly physical that has convinced me to change it soon. However, whenever I read of people having bad experiences with any product, I begin to question it. Every oil has it's own application niche. We all know that. I'm trying to get an early peek at how well MT90 works in a Mazda6.

 

[Spddm0n]

Great Thread! I'm bringing this back from a long time ago! I have been reading A LOT on various MTF's, specifically for understanding the GL-4 vs GL-5 and yellow metal discussion (which I found more interesting the comments about carbon fiber in the brass synchros and the effect of GL-5 on that). But, I digress. Back to Redline MTL...I ran Redline MTL in my 1991 Toyota MR2 Turbo transaxle 20 years ago (which I still have). At the time, I didn't notice any difference over the typical GL-4 MTF available in the late 90's. This transmission had about 100,000 miles on it. I was caught up in the cost of the Redline and refused to purchase it, so I settled for Royal Purple 75W90 because it was cheaper. I didn't realize it for many years (since I hardly ever drove it) that this caused some additional "notchy" "clicky-ness" shifting from 1st to 2nd gear. Figuring the sychros were getting worn out (common in this transmission), I ended up buying a newer later model (2001) low mileage (about ~35K miles) transmission and added an OEM LSD). I maintained the Royal Purple (literally drained and used it in the new trans). I still had the same notchy shifts. About 5 years ago (and probably only 15,000 miles on the Royal Purple), I dumped it for Amsoil MTG, annoyed with the continued issue. With the Amsoil, I still had this "clicky-ness" in that shift. It was more prevalent when cold out (Colorado), and was super annoying. I bought a low mileage parts car to rebuild some other areas of the car, and swapped in a 60K mile transmission from the parts car. I transferred the Amsoil into the new (used) trans. Still the notchy shift. I finally broke down and rebuilt the 60K mile transmission with new synchros and I still have this notchy shift. I'm pretty good mechanically, so I can rebuild/replace stuff, but I realize I wouldn't know a bad synchro from a good synchro, unless it was REALLY bad or unless someone showed me the difference. Plus, the later model trans had an updated sychro design too. That was confusing. Anyway, the reason I'm really interested now is...I am rebuilding a variety of Nissan Xterra/Frontier vehicles and I need to fill them all with manual trans fluid. I'm sort of back to the whole issue of $20+ per quart of fluid issue, but don't want to make another price decision. I simply want good protection and good cold weather shifts. I did analyze the kinematic viscosity and viscosity index data on about 20 different MTF's, and find an interesting relationship with the higher viscosity index (better cold temp viscosity - thinner), but was surprised the wear characteristics were good with Redline MTL (provided by MolaKule. I did find a small company here in CO that makes a GL-4 75W90 that has kinematic viscosity characteristics similar to the Amsoil (which I really don't want) that I can buy in a 5 gallon pale, for about $6/quart. But, I just realized I can buy the same in Redline MTL for about $0.50 more per quart. It seems this should be a super simple decision, but I'm really more concerned with the fluid in the Xterra/Frontier than I am in the MR2. I want to ensure I'm getting the best product for the Nissans. I was considering the OEM 75W-85 from Nissan, but I'll spend almost $100 for 6 quarts to get a full fill (5.3 quarts) with the OEM fluid. Thanks again MolaKule for continuing these various conversations over the years. I appreciate your attention to these oils! BTW - did you ever do any additional oil analysis in the Nissan Frontier to get a better idea on long term wear?

 

[MolaKule]

My Frontier speced a [email protected] cSt fluid. If your transmission is speced for a higher viscosity, I would recommend the Amsoil MTG or the Redline MTL 75W85 as they have the proper Anti-Wear and friction modification. Who knows what is in the CO company's lube. Just because it is a GL-4 lube doesn't mean it is the correct lube for a manual transmission. As for the Frontier, I sold it many years ago and did do many UOA's but didn't keep those records as they went with the new owner.