Redline MT Lubes

[MolaKule]

These are VOA results for comparison for the Redline MT series of Manual Transimission and Transaxle lubes. Redline MT-90 5/12/2003 Metal Iron (Fe) 2 Copper (Cu) 0 Chromium (Cr) 0 Aluminum (Al) 3 Lead (Pb) 3 Tin (Sn) 6 Silicon (Si) 15 Sodium (Na) 18 Potassium (K) 21 Molybdenum (Mo) 1 Phosphorus (P) 2410 Zinc (Zn) 2750 Calcium (Ca) 2840 Magnesium (Mg) 11 Physical Water (W) N Fuel (F) / Antifreeze (A) / Viscocity At 40 C (V40) 0 Total Acid Number (Tan) 1 Total Base Number (Tbn) 3 Viscosity At 100 C (V100) 14.3 Particle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Redline MTL 5/12/2003 Analysis by Dyson Metal Iron (Fe) 1 Copper (Cu) 0 Chromium (Cr) 0 Aluminum (Al) 3 Lead (Pb) 3 Tin (Sn) 5 Silicon (Si) 25 Sodium (Na) 21 Potassium (K) 11 Molybdenum (Mo) 1 Phosphorus (P) 2520 Zinc (Zn) 2820 Calcium (Ca) 2860 Magnesium (Mg) 11 Physical Water (W) N Fuel (F) / Antifreeze (A) / Viscocity At 40 C (V40) NR Total Acid Number (Tan) 1 Total Base Number (Tbn) 4 Viscosity At 100 C (V100) 11.2 Iso Code Rating (Iso) 19/12 These Manual Gear Lubes also have the new Boron additives, not tested.

 

[sprintman]

Moly 1?

 

[MolaKule]

Moly is most likely a trace amount from running engine lubes through the same blending unit. Most small blenders and formulators don't have a separate blending station for each product. If you want to blend gear lubes after blending engine lubes, you flush the pipes as best you can and then you blend. Consider the Moly 1 ppm as a freebee! [ May 28, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[cryptokid]

i have noticed a moly=1 in other voa's and uoa's as well.

 

[Bror Jace]

cryptokid, most UOA moly amounts in the single digits are from chrome-moly piston rings. They are actually wear, not an additive. Thanks for the info, 'Kule. With no moly at all in these formulations, I would consider them (excellent!) synchromesh tranny lubes only and would never consider them for a differential. --- Bror Jace

 

[mph]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bror Jace: With no moly at all in these formulations, I would consider them (excellent!) synchromesh tranny lubes only and would never consider them for a differential.

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Can you clarify this statement? Is there a reason that moly shouldn't be used a synchromesh tranny? Or if you mean that differentials need moly to prevent wear, would that preclude using these oils in a synchromesh transaxle (where the diff/gearbox share oil)?

 

[TooSlick]

mph, The Redline MTL and MT-90 are rated for GL-4 use only and are not intended for use in hypoid differentials calling for a GL-5 spec. It has nothing to do with whether the formulation has moly in it ....Redline does make 75w-90/75w-140, GL-5 rated gear lubes for differential applications. TooSlick

 

[Bror Jace]

" ... Red Line MTL and MT-90 are rated for GL-4 use only and are not intended for use in hypoid differentials calling for a GL-5 spec. It has nothing to do with whether the formulation has moly in it." Are you sure? Are there GL-5 oils without at least some form of molybdenum in them? I suppose it's possible but I just assume that they all have it ... or am I think grease? I do so little with heavy duty lubes. Red Line must feel there is a problem with moly in a syncromesh box. They load up most of their formulas with the stuff so its omission in MTL/MT-90 arouses my suspicion ... well, at least it makes me wonder 'bout it. --- Bror Jace

 

[MolaKule]

The answer I think is in differing formulating philosophies with respect to differing applications. Moly MoDTC is mainly a friction modifier in terms of mechanics, and an oxidation inhibitor in terms of stabilizing the chemistry for use in PCMO's. Moly sulfide powder is great for heavy duty GL5 lubes, such as http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/267.html since the gears become coated with a thin layer of moly metal that withstands pressures of 500,000 psi before shearing. But in this application of moly, it is used as a EP coating, not as a friction modifier. For manual trannys, there are better friction modification chemistries in the form of organic friction modifiers. The organic's allow for more exact tweaking of the friction characteristics than do the metallic additives such as MoDTC and ZDDP. For manual trannys, the main EP/AW chemistry is the P-S or phosphor-sulfur adds seen at http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000104#000006 and at http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000226 and http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000227 Take as an example the Redline gear GL5 lubes. EP/AW chemistry is P-S or phosphor-sulfur with boron esters and the high viscosity PAO's and esters. Slight friction modification is done with synthesized organics. With the HV synthesized base oils and the EP/AW chemisrty, moly disulfide powder is not required. Now take Schaeffer's GL5's. They use paraffinic Group I, II oils as bases and use PAO's for viscosity improvement, aka, as an additive. Since they do not use HV PAO's and esters, their EP/AW add pack needs extra stuff, in addition to their P-S or phosphor-sulfur chemistry, so enter moly disulfide powders to make a very robust EP/AW add pack. IMHO, Schaeffer's #267 is the most robust 75W90 GL5 anywhere. However, I would not use in daily driver manual trannys speced for GL4. Now OTR tranny's and others speced for GL5, shure, wouldn't hesitate to use it in that application. [ December 18, 2003, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[samson1]

RL MT-90 has been great in my mt, changed over to it 2k ago and nothing but smooth shifting and a 8% increase in gas mileage too.

 

[Maxima97]

MT-90 has been in my Prizm and Maxima now. Gear change feels more easy and smooth.

 

[MolaKule]

And the new MTL-70W80 has solved a lot of cold weather shifting problems in Ford and BMW manual trannies.

 

[m37charlie]

Molakule, I have a question: I had 6 qt of Delvac Synthetic Trans Fluid 50 left which I mixed with 2 gal (8qt) of RL MTL ( that I've had for several yrs unopened) to get 14 qt of vis [email protected], [email protected], perfect for a fill of my Unimog's very expensive gearbox which calls for 75W85 GL4. (in Alaska's climate; in hot places the Delvac 50 is perfect). The Delvac uses 20-30% diisodecyl adipate as a lubricity enhancer with a PAO base, and an ashless amine as an AW additive. AFAIK MTL uses ~2.7% ZDDP as AW and of course an ester base. I put a few oz of the mixture in a glass jar on the wood stove and heated it to ~90-100C for a couple of hrs with no precipitation. What prognosis would you give this mixture, vs. Castrol Syntrans which I already have 2X20L (unopened)? The OCI is 2400 hrs/4 yrs. Sorry for the OT/hijack Thanks, Charlie

 

[MolaKule]

Which Syntrans? Syntrans 75W/85? They also have a Sytrans M? Which RL MT lube? Their MTL-70W80 is a 10 cSt lube. diisodecyl adipate ester is a multifunctional additive in that it is a lubricity enhancer and seal swell additive. If the mix meets your viscosity requirements and shifts well, stay with it. What viscosity does your tranny spec? The Syntrans 75W/85 would have a lower viscosity than your mix. I haven't analyzed any Castrol MT fluids to see what the actual vis or additive makeup might be. As I have mnetioned in the past, for synchromeshes, viscosity and friction modifiers are very important.

 

[m37charlie]

It calls for 75W85, the mix is still within that. Both components are GL4. Syntrans 75W85 is the main specified fluid of 235.4. I used 57% MTL and 43% Delvac 50. Incidentally in Australia I used straight Delvac 50 with no problems. Charlie

 

[m37charlie]

By MTL I mean the 10.6 vis stuff. Delvac 50 is 17.5, in my ratio it ends up [email protected] Charlie

 

[Sonataman]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

And the new MTL-70W80 has solved a lot of cold weather shifting problems in Ford and BMW manual trannies.

And Hyundai MT's!