Redline is doing it too...

[GMorg]

Look guys, I'm lost in the woods. I think that as long as low viscosity oil UOAs keep coming in with low wear, then the thinner the oil the better. I used the phrase "we(as a group)" in an earlier post in an attempt to be inclusive and non-offensive since I think that ignoring data is not useful. (Boy that didn't work). The only impressive information that I have seen to convince me that thin isn't better than thick is that a company (Castrol) is telling me to not buy their product unless I have a particular engine. Wow - a company asking me to not buy their product. That makes me reconsider the data that I have seen and ask if a group like Castrol may actually have data that 5W20, at least theirs, is not such good stuff. I still don't know, but I will post no more on the Castrol's warning.

Similarly, I have not seen any data nor first hand experience that would prove that great oils are bad if used in the first 3000 miles. I think that synthetic blenders may be trying to capitalize on a myth. I may wrong. I actually wanted to know.

I think that dispelling myths is good. I think that propagating a myth is bad. I also don't mind being wrong. (It is easier for me to recognize when I have learned something when I am wrong). I still don't know if synthetic prevent good break-in. I will post no more on Redline's claim.

 

[GMorg]

Wow, thanks MGBV8. I really do appreciate that.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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I think that dispelling myths is good. I think that propagating a myth is bad.

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I couldn't agree more and that's one of the two reasons this Website was established; the other reason was to educate consumers and gearheads.

Try to look at it this way:

1. Mobil is making recommendations from the perspective of their formulation; this is what they believe to be true.

2. From Redline's experience, knowledge of their formulation and perspective, this is what they believe to be true. Please see prior discussion of litigation or potential litigation as being part of the discussion.

Now let's get back to Castrol and the 5W20 thingy.

quote:

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Last week I sought input from BITOG as to why Castrol "warned" about using 5W20 in engines for which the manufacturer did not make a 5W20 recomendation. By the way, as far as I could tell, only Castrol used the word "only" in their recomendations.

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This has to be, in my mind, a statement by a company who does not want litigation and is simply making an application warning and here IMHO is the reason:

With the price of fuel being high, many people are switching to thinner oils to save fuel.

Let's assume that someone wants to save a few ounces of fuel, his engine manf. specifies a 10W30 SL oil, and this person switches to Castrol 5W20 without using UOA's and a good analyst.

Let's further assume his engine goes south and sues Castrol for causing his engine to fail. Castrol can say this was a missapplication of their product and they are not responsible for the ensuing damage, and that the case is without merit and should be dismissed.

My personal opinion is that one should use the thinnest oil possible as supported by Used Oil Analysis.

As you can see, there are many dimensions to the oil business.

Regarding the "glazing." I have never seen redline say anything about glazing and I believe this is "Extra-Redline."

I do know from my own formulating experience that a rebuilt and hot bigblock doing run-in can turn some additives to a glassy coating very quickly.

 

[Titan]

Businesses must practice advance CYA, or risk the entire business due to a lawsuit gone bad. And the lawsuit doesn't even have to have common sense merit.

Here's an interesting trend, that MAY help to keep some of these lawsuits down. There are liability policies now that state the "expert witnesses" of the other party will AUTOMATICALLY be counter-sued. That's right. You agree to sit on the stand as an expert witness, you'd better be darn sure you know what you are talking about and that it will hold up in a countersuit. The BEST thing about that is that this automatic countersuit of the opposing expert witnesses is disclosed at the beginning of the suit. Keeps some not-so-sure-experts out of the courtroom, and therefore some of the more ridiculous cases out of court....that is, IF you have this insurance.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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I will post no more on Redline's claim.

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Why not

Seemed like a good discussion to me

Did someone get miffed about it??

 

[GMorg]

Not miffed, just cautious.

I think we made it to a point that we can have a discussion without any need to drag a company into things .. At least not again.

I would like to know if anyone knows if a particular additive is the culprit for glazing.

MolaKule, can you elaborate on wether you have experience with a specific additive being a break-in problem?

In relation to that question, does anyone know if the the optimal wear during break-in is viscosity dependent? To clarify, is a 30 weight break-in ideal for a 20 weight or 40 weight follow-up oil usage? Or, is a 30 weight break-in best for an XW30. And if most wear is at start-up, how does viscosity at start-up relate to viscosity at operating temps.

 

[darkdan]

Mobil says it's okay because they're the factory fill on lots of vehicles.

 

[MGBV8]

The Silkolene 0W20 has a warning re oil pump capacity

http://10.45.0.105/696332508/668987...dhttp://www.silkoleneoil.com/pdf/ProR0w20.pdf
Approx
Grade..At 0C.........At 10C...........At 100C

0W/20..328.6cSt......180.8cSt..........9cSt

5W/40..811.4cSt......421.4cSt..........14cSt

10W/50.1039cSt.......538.9cSt..........18cSt

15W/50.1376cSt.......674.7cSt.........18cSt

20W/50..2305cSt.......1015cSt..........18cSt

 

[GMorg]

Speaking of Mobil's factory fill, has anyone noticed that Mobil has multiple MSDS sheets for M1? If you search the Mobil MSDA data base with the term "5W-30", you get the list below. Notice that Mobil 1 has multiple entries including a Mopar entry and a GM entry in addition to standard, EP and Truck and SUV. The MSDA sheets are not idendical between the M1 5W30s.

from:http://www.host1.exxonmobil.com/psims/psims.aspx
search term: 5W-30
Hits:
AC DELCO 5W-30
ACURA MOTOR OIL 5W-30
DC MS 10796 5W-30
DC MS 9767 (C) FF (GF3) 5W-30
ESSO UNIFLO 5W-30
EXXON SPECIAL 5W-30
EXXON SUPERFLO 5W-30
GM 9986231 5W-30
GM GOODWRENCH 5W-30
GM GOODWRENCH HIGH MILEAGE 5W-30
GM GOODWRENCH SYNTHETIC BLEND 5W-30
HONDA GENUINE MOTOR OIL 5W-30
INFILREX OEM GF-2 5W-30
MOBIL 1 5W-30
MOBIL 1 5W-30 - MOPAR
MOBIL 1 5W-30 GM
MOBIL 1 EXTENDED PERFORMANCE 5W-30
MOBIL 1 EXTENDED PERFORMANCE 5W-30 - MEXICO
MOBIL 1 TRUCK & SUV 5W-30
MOBIL CLEAN 5000 5W-30

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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MolaKule, can you elaborate on wether you have experience with a specific additive being a break-in problem?

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In rebuilt engines, that would be any additive at high treatment levels that reduces wear and friction, such as oil soluble Zinc, moly, boron, antimony, esters, etc.

For run-in of rebuilt engines of up to 350 cu.in, I prefer a cheap dino 5W30 for 500 miles or so, with the mileage on dino dependant upon the amount of oil consumption.

Now for assembly lubes, you want as much AW and FM as possible since the engine will be experiencing a dry start until the oil begins to ciculate.