redline and easy driven cars
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MolaKule
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Polyolester fluids and di-esters have greater film strengths, greater fluidity, spread better, coat better, stick better, and resist high temperature oxidation better than PAO's or mineral oils.
Most esters mix better with most oils than do most other bases. Ester hygroscopy is no worse than with most mineral oils.
Esters are part of today's full synthetic oil formulations because they increase additive compatibility, enhance seal swell, increase the VI, and resist high temperature oxidation.
MolaKule
Staff member
Amsoil changed to PAO/polyolester mix for a variety of reasons:
1. Amsoil used almost 100% di-esters; cost of and availability of di-esters was going sour,
2. PAO/polyolester mix was less expensive to produce and had almost the same performance for most applications,
3. new polyolesters had better thermal and VI specs than did di-esters and performance could be improved at less cost.
4. NO seal performance problems with OLD or NEW formulations.
MolaKule
Staff member
A mineral oil, PAO, or ester, by itself, will all fail rust testing.
That's why we have additives, called rust inhibitors, that prevents rust:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000025
I was around when Amzoil (then) made the change.
In fact, I had one of the engines (Buick V-6) that failed when the original diester-based lubricant failed in the presence of water.
However, cost was certainly a major driver.
Availability of diesters remains good:
http://www.lubricon.ca/diesters/
http://www.shell-lubricants.com/products
http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/20w50.htm
http://www.ultracheminc.com
http://www.gaeicc.com/lubricants.htm
http://www.citgo.com/Products/LubesOils/CITGOBrand/CITGOBrandCompressorLubricants.jsp
http://www.americansynthol.com
etc etc
However, there are other ways to skin the cat for less money with the advent of Group III, PAO, and other lubricants.
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Note that "rust testing" and "anti-rust protection" are two different things.
No mineral oil, PAO, diester, polyolester, silicone, polyglycol, multiplyalkylated cyclopentane, polyphenylether, perfluoropolyether, or other base will pass any standards as a motor oil without additives and blending.
But, buck naked, polyolesters do not exhibit anti-rust properties, while mineral oils and polyalphaolefins do.
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Interesting discussion. I'm not a fan of Redline. Their are over 300 esters from what has been stated on here. Redline shows higher Cu usually and sometimes higher lead. It woudn't surprise me if Redline had corrosive tendencies. Now is it from the Moly or type/quantity of the ester being used???
All the arguements of cost/performance/corrosion seem to be accurate. My question has always been, if Polyolester used as the PRIMARY base stock was so superior, Mobil 1/Amsoil/Synergyn would all be using it as their primary basestock for their racing oils (M1/S2k etc). Series 2000 20-50 is $8.35 qt, more then Redline at $6-$8qt. Why didn't Amsoil chose a POE as the primary basestock then? I'm not a chemist so I can't prove this but when you look at even what Shell is claiming they use in Ferrari, it's a blend. I think other then the stronger film strength and shear strength of a Redline type oil, they are really not your best choice. We've only seen a handfull of decent UOAs of Redline. Not impressive at all.
Redline also doesn't believe in used oil analysis for comparing oils. Darren Wallace of Amsoil says he has seen numerous Redline reports go through OAI and said once moisture gets involved with RL, forget it. Depleted TBN (which we see often with RL) and high wear metals. He said Amsoil has never been impressed with it. Could be Amsoil BS but I'm sure if they thought it was teh better way to go, they'd be using it. Same goes for other high end brands. The idea that Redline shows high wear bc of dirt, poor airfiltration and a not so clean engine has been used much to often. In fact, it's an insult to our intelligence quite frankly. Until I see more UOAs, not TWO good ones, I'm not convinced. Show me the data.
[ August 03, 2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
MolaKule
Staff member
Today the supply is very good, but still at a high cost. At the time of the decision, the supply and its outlook wasn't so good.
MolaKule
Staff member
I disagree. Even butt-naked their surfactant properties (which allow them to spread and coat) are superior to both PAO's and mineral oils.
No they're not; they go hand-in-hand. A good lubricant will have a good rust inhibitor to prevent or retard rust and ferrous oxidation, and will make good marks in the humidity cabinet tests.
red lines reply to my email
"The polyolester bas stock doesn't break down in the presence of
moisture, the lower molecular weights can have more of an affinity.
The Red Line Oils offer very good anti-rust properties a
characteristic addressed in the additive package as it is in most
oils. The polyolesters are attracted to so cling to the surface,
offering a protective film that other synthetic base stocks and
petroleums don't.
The Red Line 5W20 will continue to work and perform well in your
engine even when not driven frequently, you don't need to be concerned."
Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil
"The polyolester bas stock doesn't break down in the presence of
moisture, the lower molecular weights can have more of an affinity.
The Red Line Oils offer very good anti-rust properties a
characteristic addressed in the additive package as it is in most
oils. The polyolesters are attracted to so cling to the surface,
offering a protective film that other synthetic base stocks and
petroleums don't.
The Red Line 5W20 will continue to work and perform well in your
engine even when not driven frequently, you don't need to be concerned."
Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil
Which kind of lends to the scavenger theory correct? It's just so hard to tell. But if you did tear downs and really measured wear, that would put everything to rest I bet. Why doesn't Delvac 1 with it's high ester content, or GC show this effect? Different esters?
MolaKule
Staff member
In fact, I had one of the engines (Buick V-6) that failed when the original diester-based lubricant failed in the presence of water.
A yeah, most mechanical parts will fail when the lubricity of water lowers the anti-frictional properties of the oil.
A yeah, most mechanical parts will fail when the lubricity of water lowers the anti-frictional properties of the oil.
MolaKule
Staff member
Somewhere here on BITOG I explained that I did run a test some time ago on two Kohler engines of different horsepowers using Redline. Oil samples showed wear metals like you see here in UOA's. Upon measuring with electronic micrometers, no perceptible wear could be detected. This led me to believe, independently, that the metals were coming from somewhere else, metals that perhaps were in the pores of the cast iron that had been placed there earlier, and had been scavenged by the more potentially agressive esters in Redline.
The esters in Delvac 1 and GC are TME and TMP esters, whereas the esters in RL are primarily penerythritol (PE).
I think most us agree on here that RL is better as a race oil, then a street oil. When you think about it, the only clear cut advantage RL has over any other top notch PAO synthetic is shear stability. So for racing, thats great, but for daily drivers it's clearly not the best choice and we've seen other oils outperfom it in the wear department. And that is what the competition will tell you. They acknowledge RL as a very good RACE oil. Darren Wallace flat out said for running around the track, it's great. It will hold it's viscosity. But for long drains and in the presence of moisture, they do not like it at all. So I guess RL has to rely on the additive package more so to offset some of the negative aspects of the POE base oil where as a PAO basestock with additives makes a more street friendly oil.
MolaKule
Staff member
So what direct quote from Hatco and Mobil and others have yu posted?
OK, tell us something we don't already know!
And who is THEY that hate polyolesters?
I think Redline is fine for daily drivers, but better for racing. Now if another, lower cost oil shows just as good or better wear in your vehicle via UOA's, and your comfort level is better with a lower cost oil, then you must use what your budget allows.
[ August 03, 2004, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
Thanks for the clairification! "Conformist sheep" LOL! No doubt that Red Line was designed for the hard driven vehicle.
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