Redline 5W-30, Camaro LS1, 8000 miles, Sample #2

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Reference previous UOA at 5800 miles:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2906981&page=2

I did decide to extend the oil change to interval to 8000 miles, and here are the results:

From Polaris Labs.
Wear Metals
(Element, Virgin, 5800mi, 8000mi)
Fe, 1, 29, 103
Al, 0, 8, 16
Cu, 1, 26, 34
Pb, 0, 4, 24
Sn, 0, 2, 5

Contaminant Metals
Si, 15, 24, 21
Na, 11, 19, 20

Multi-source Metals
Mo, 670, 743, 535
Sb, 0, 6, 0
B, 120, 47, 27

Additive Metals
Mg, 14, 55, 105
Ca, 2469, 2741, 2464
P, 1221, 1204, 1076
Zn, 1504, 1480, 1403

Fuel dilution Soot Water
KV100: 10.5 virgin, 11.6 @ 5800, 12.2 @ 8000
TBN: 8.55 virgin, 2.64 @ 5800, 2.44 @ 8000
Oxidation: 108 virgin, 109 @ 5800, 101 @ 8000
Nitration: 8 virgin, 15 @ 5800, 18 @ 8000

8000 miles on oil, 193k miles on vehicle

Polaris Comments:
Lube oxidation may be increasing; However, in order to properly evaluate oxidation for synthetic ois, we need LUBEMFR, LUBE TYPE AND GRADE; Base Number is moderately low. Iron is at a minor level, bearing metal is at a minor level; Abrasives (silicon/dirt) are at a minor level; In order to properly compare data to the right standards, we need manufacturer and model of the component, and the manufacturer, product name, and viscosity grade of the fluid, Lubricant and filter change acknowledged.

Once again, Polaris' comments are ignoring data they have on hand. I provided all the required data on the lube analysis form when I sent in the sample, and they have a VOA of the Redline oil from last year.

But anyway, the main reason I extended the OCI was to see how the TBN would behave once it was in the 2.XX range. I'm pleased to see that it didn't continue to drop like a rock as it did in the first 5800 miles. It only dropped from 2.64 to 2.44 in the last 2200 miles, which was all daily-driver duty during the winter. The only hard running it got was 6 standing-mile runs at the Michigan Mile.

The items of concern are the big spikes in Iron and Lead, with significant increases in Aluminum and Copper. Polaris is calling the increases minor, but I think that a 250% increase in Iron in only 2200 miles is more than minor.

A significant event that may be effecting this UOA occurred when I took it in to have the transmission rebuilt. The garage took the car apart in early March, then pushed it outside, where it sat for 3 months. I'm wondering if a film of rust could have formed on the iron and steel surfaces while it was sitting outside, and that is effecting the Iron reading.

I'll definitely be monitoring the wear metals on the new OCI with Joe Gibbs LS30.
 
OMG, a 3 month rebuild? Sounds like another thread.

The numbers don't really add up to me, I know that TBN is not linear but the huge spikes in wear metals have to catch the eye of anyone who likes their car.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
OMG, a 3 month rebuild? Sounds like another thread.



Don't get me started.
I'm trying to put it all behind me.
 
I think sitting outside for three months in a Michigan winter without being run certainly could explain the spike in Fe.

I had an car stored in a drafty unheated barn one winter years ago and when I tried to start it in the spring it wouldn't turn over.
The rings had frozen in the bores. Pulled the plugs, sprayed penetrating oil in each bore and let it sit for a while.
Put the car in fourth gear, jacked up a rear drive wheel and worked the engine gently back and forth and it freed up.

Reinstalled the plugs and fired her up. Car ran fine for years afterwords, but I wonder what a UOA would have looked?
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I think sitting outside for three months in a Michigan winter without being run certainly could explain the spike in Fe.

I had an car stored in a drafty unheated barn one winter years ago and when I tried to start it in the spring it wouldn't turn over.
The rings had frozen in the bores. Pulled the plugs, sprayed penetrating oil in each bore and let it sit for a while.
Put the car in fourth gear, jacked up a rear drive wheel and worked the engine gently back and forth and it freed up.

Reinstalled the plugs and fired her up. Car ran fine for years afterwords, but I wonder what a UOA would have looked?


Ouch thats nasty! Would have loved to tear that engine apart let alone see the uoa.
 
That's a huge increase in wear metals for the amount of mile increase, as you all realize. I too would not continue using this oil.
 
Originally Posted By: abycat
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I think sitting outside for three months in a Michigan winter without being run certainly could explain the spike in Fe.

I had an car stored in a drafty unheated barn one winter years ago and when I tried to start it in the spring it wouldn't turn over.
The rings had frozen in the bores. Pulled the plugs, sprayed penetrating oil in each bore and let it sit for a while.
Put the car in fourth gear, jacked up a rear drive wheel and worked the engine gently back and forth and it freed up.

Reinstalled the plugs and fired her up. Car ran fine for years afterwords, but I wonder what a UOA would have looked?


Ouch thats nasty! Would have loved to tear that engine apart let alone see the uoa.

When I was growing up it wasn't an uncommon occurrence for little used engines to "freeze-up" in the winter months.

It also happen to a motorcycle I had. Tried to start it in the winter but couldn't, it kept flooding and had straight 30wt oil in the sump. Left it until the spring and sure enough the
raw gas had washed the bores of oil film, so it wouldn't turn over. Pulled the plugs and sprayed penetrating oil in each cylinder which soon freed things up. Engine ran fine.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
That's a huge increase in wear metals for the amount of mile increase, as you all realize. I too would not continue using this oil.


I was ready to go away from Redline on the next oil change because of the fast rate of TBN depletion on the first UOA. But since the TBN held up over the last 2200 miles, I am not ready to cross Redline off my list. I'm also not ready to blame the Redline oil for the wear metals either. I ran the car much harder in the first 5800 miles of the OCI, and the wear metals were fine. I also ran RL last year for 7400 miles and mutliple track days without having abnormal wear metals readings.

I have changed to JGD LS30 on the current fill, so we'll see how it does with the wear metals when I UOA again in a few months.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: JAG
That's a huge increase in wear metals for the amount of mile increase, as you all realize. I too would not continue using this oil.


+1
 
103 PPM of Iron? Ouch. It does make you think something extraordinary happened. Personally I'd be more worried about the lead. Did the shop have to pull the motor to do the tranny?

The TBN stability is very interesting. Sort of makes it hard to know how to use UOA to determine an OCI.

The Moly levels are all over the map, what's the accuracy of that measurement any way?

Oxidation went down in the latest sample, huh? Seems like maybe there really isn't any oxidation (or very minimal) and we're just seeing the limitations of the measurement. OAI gave me the same annoying comments about telling them the lube. Ummm, how many Redline 5w30s do they think they make? Then they flag oxidation even though their own interpretation instructions say ester products will show high oxidation... dumb.

Not sure where I'm going with this ramble, It'll be interesting to see your Joe Gibbs UOA.
 
No, the engine stayed in the car, but they dropped the exhaust system off, which left the exhaust of the engine open to atmosphere while it was sitting outside for those 3 months. I picture water vapor streaming up the exhaust manifolds and getting into whatever cylinders had open valves when it was last shut down. Throw in about 90 hot and cold cycles, and I can picture condensation invading the upper piston ring grooves, causing the liners to rust and a couple of top rings to stick. I went to the shop yesterday and talked to the owner. He said the engine smoked a lot when they finally started it back up. Mecanically, the engine still sounds the same as it did before, but it has had a couple of episodes of hesitation under part-throttle acceleration, and gave me a check engine light that showed all 4 O2 sensors reading lean at the same time. Something may be going on in there.

I still don't know what to think of Redline's TBN behavior. I have read on BITOG before about TBN depleting rapidly when fresh, then hovering the range of 2.X for thousands of miles. I thought that was what I was seeing when I got the UOA back. But then I looked at TallPaul's results (linked in this thread) where TBN plummeted straight to 1.85 in only 5400 miles, and still don't really understand.

The Oxidation behavior is also noteworthy. Given the Virgin oxidation of RL 5w30 is 108, the used readings of 109 and 101 are probably just showing the variability of the lab measurement method. So I would conclude that the oil is not oxidizing. But look at the KV100 readings: 10.5 virgin, then 11.6 and 12.2 used. The oil is thickening all the time. How can it be doing that if the oil is not oxidizing? Is the virgin oxidation reading of Redline so high that it is masking in-use oxidation?

I think I'll do a UOA of the LS30 at 5000 miles to keep tabs on the wear metals, and hope that they drop. The LS30 gets a pass if they don't improve because there was something wrong when I poured it in.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
No, the engine stayed in the car, but they dropped the exhaust system off, which left the exhaust of the engine open to atmosphere while it was sitting outside for those 3 months. I picture water vapor streaming up the exhaust manifolds and getting into whatever cylinders had open valves when it was last shut down. Throw in about 90 hot and cold cycles, and I can picture condensation invading the upper piston ring grooves, causing the liners to rust and a couple of top rings to stick. I went to the shop yesterday and talked to the owner. He said the engine smoked a lot when they finally started it back up. Mecanically, the engine still sounds the same as it did before, but it has had a couple of episodes of hesitation under part-throttle acceleration, and gave me a check engine light that showed all 4 O2 sensors reading lean at the same time. Something may be going on in there.


It sound like something is going on independent of the oil which may be causing the spike in wear metals. Possibly rusted cylinders and/or stuck rings given the smoking. I'm with you, I wouldn't write Redline off without more information.

Quote:
I still don't know what to think of Redline's TBN behavior. I have read on BITOG before about TBN depleting rapidly when fresh, then hovering the range of 2.X for thousands of miles. I thought that was what I was seeing when I got the UOA back. But then I looked at TallPaul's results (linked in this thread) where TBN plummeted straight to 1.85 in only 5400 miles, and still don't really understand.

The Oxidation behavior is also noteworthy. Given the Virgin oxidation of RL 5w30 is 108, the used readings of 109 and 101 are probably just showing the variability of the lab measurement method. So I would conclude that the oil is not oxidizing. But look at the KV100 readings: 10.5 virgin, then 11.6 and 12.2 used. The oil is thickening all the time. How can it be doing that if the oil is not oxidizing? Is the virgin oxidation reading of Redline so high that it is masking in-use oxidation?


My guess is the thickening is primarily due to particles in the oil rather than oxidation. Think about soot thickening in diesels. Gasoline engines don't produce as much soot, but they still produce some. Anything held in suspension by the detergents will tend to thicken the oil. FWIW, my latest 7,250 mi run on Redline showed the same thing, no oxidation, but getting thicker. UOA LINK

Quote:
I think I'll do a UOA of the LS30 at 5000 miles to keep tabs on the wear metals, and hope that they drop. The LS30 gets a pass if they don't improve because there was something wrong when I poured it in.


A wise choice. Are you going to change it at 5k? I didn't think LS30 was a long-drain oil.
 
I'm hoping I can run the LS30 to 10k miles. It has a virgin TBN of 10.1, so I'm expecting it will go longer than Redline, which is 8.6.
 
Oil did fine. That sitting outside was not good for everything, including the oil.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I'm hoping I can run the LS30 to 10k miles. It has a virgin TBN of 10.1, so I'm expecting it will go longer than Redline, which is 8.6.

By all means lets see how long it will last but remember there is a reason why many performance oils have a lower TBN; high doses of Ca and Mg compete with AW additives and can result in increased engine wear especially during periods of high temperature boundary/mixed lubrication.
For example Amsoil's Dominator oils have half the TBN of their SS oils.
 
And Amsoil Dominator oil wins races in some of the toughest racing on the planet, off road trucks. I love the stuff, but it is simply not good for the street.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I love the stuff, but it is simply not good for the street.

Yes because of it's high ZDDP levels although 1,700 ppm Zn is no higher than some street use 4T sport bike oil.
 
Look at all that iron!
Does it indicate more wear vs another oil? chelation? are the wear particles more uniform and the correct size for the UOA test sequence?


Looking at all that iron, you'd think the engine was about to fail (but we know better, right?)
 
Iron at ~100 does trigger normal oil changes in heavy-duty diesel engines, so I'm not very worried about the quantity. I've seen successive oil analyses from OEM durability tests where they routinely change at 120. It's the spike from 29 to 103 that causes the concern.
 
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