Redline 20w50 MC oil UOA 2009 Harley 96 cu.in.

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Been running Redline for about 20K miles when I first made the switch I noticed that this oil was great at quieting down the valvetrain. Did not notice any cooler temps or better MPG's. Got this first sample done and I was not that impressed with the wear numbers. The viscosity, TBN, and Flashpoint numbers were great. I just switched to the Valvoline 20w50 synthetic MC oil and will test this as well. Can anyone tell me why most UOA done on Redline show increased Fe, and Cu numbers? I do have an oil cooler and bigger cam but after using this oil 20K miles and changing it ever 4k miles these numbers should be lower I would think. OIl Redline 20w-50 MC Unit 2009 Harley Davidson Road King 96 cu.in. Miles on Oil 3,949 Universal Miles on Unit 28,349 Averages Aluminum 3 5 Chromium 1 0 Iron 16 12 Copper 17 19 Lead 1 1 Tin 0 2 Molybdenum 352 87 Nickel 0 0 Manganese 0 1 Silver 0 0 Titanium 0 1 Potassium 4 4 Boron 55 136 Silicon 15 13 Sodium 93 26 Calcium 2646 2531 Magnesium 11 288 Phosphorus 1685 1132 Zinc 1941 1431 Barium 1 1 Values Should Be SUS Viscosity @ 210F 94.1 86-102 cSt Viscosity @ 100C 18.97 17.0-21.1 Flashpoint in F 430 >385 Fuel% <0.5 <2.0 Antifreeze % N/A 0 Water % 0.0 <0.1 Insolubles % 0.1 <0.6 TBN 5.5 >1.0 TAN ISO Code
 
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You seem close to the universe averages. I wouldn't worry about it. A lot of Harley Davidson owners seem to prefer Valvoline VR1 over the motorcycle specific oil. Oil analysis shows good results there too. Does this bike have a separate sump for the motor? If so, the regular Red Line automotive oil will be fine for this application. It has more moly and it anyhow.
 

fireaxxe

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Its a separate sump. I am good with the results but expected the redline to outperform the "universal average" and this would have allowed me to justify continuing using it. These numbers are worse than all of the UOA on similar bikes using Valvoline. So I switched
 
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Is a basic UOA the ultimate judge of a motor oil. Could very slightly higher Fe numbers indicate and oil that's keeping the engine cleaner by picking up Fe that not involved in contact wear? Samples taken from an external oil tank like your motorcycle can usually read higher in wear particles and very carefully controlled, repeatable sampling methods must be used. Additional testing would be required to help identify the kind of wear that is taking place. Analytical ferrography would be a good start. This will also help to identify the source of the wear. You could try adding ferrous density testing to monitor larger particles of iron debris. It may not be desirable to find that your sample is free of Fe but establishing normal might just be a process of waiting for the Fe numbers to make a jump accepting the fact that what you have now is normal.
 

fireaxxe

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Not sure but the only reason I questioned Redline in the first place is that I shimmed the rockerboxes 5k miles ago and the valvetrain is getting loud again. So to me this indicates wear. I have the feeling that Redline is a good oil for racing and high temp but because of this it also has limitations. My theory is this oil is filled with metals and is what I call a "hard" oil in which it last long but beats up on the motor when used for everyday normal use. I also think redline stays "thick" in higher temps and not allowing the top end to receive adequate lubrication during normal riding. Then you have the conventional "soft" oils which don't have alot of metals or detergents they also shear quickly dont last nearly as long but the plus side is they are not as abrasive as the "hard" oils. This is just my theory. I have viewed many many UOA not only from motorcycles but also other vehicles and there is always some excuse to justify why certain synthetics have bad or just average numbers. The only advantage I see to synthetic high dollar oil is that they last a few miles longer. I have not seen any proof that they prevent wear, dissipate heat, increase MPG or anything else, any my own experience has verified this. I plan to test the Valvoline that I am using both by UOA and real world application as I plan to shim the rockerboxes again and see how long before they start rattling again.
 
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Originally Posted By: fireaxxe
Not sure but the only reason I questioned Redline in the first place is that I shimmed the rockerboxes 5k miles ago and the valvetrain is getting loud again. So to me this indicates wear. I have the feeling that Redline is a good oil for racing and high temp but because of this it also has limitations. My theory is this oil is filled with metals and is what I call a "hard" oil in which it last long but beats up on the motor when used for everyday normal use. I also think redline stays "thick" in higher temps and not allowing the top end to receive adequate lubrication during normal riding. Then you have the conventional "soft" oils which don't have alot of metals or detergents they also shear quickly dont last nearly as long but the plus side is they are not as abrasive as the "hard" oils. This is just my theory. I have viewed many many UOA not only from motorcycles but also other vehicles and there is always some excuse to justify why certain synthetics have bad or just average numbers. The only advantage I see to synthetic high dollar oil is that they last a few miles longer. I have not seen any proof that they prevent wear, dissipate heat, increase MPG or anything else, any my own experience has verified this. I plan to test the Valvoline that I am using both by UOA and real world application as I plan to shim the rockerboxes again and see how long before they start rattling again.
You've completely lost me.
 

fireaxxe

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Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Originally Posted By: fireaxxe
Not sure but the only reason I questioned Redline in the first place is that I shimmed the rockerboxes 5k miles ago and the valvetrain is getting loud again. So to me this indicates wear. I have the feeling that Redline is a good oil for racing and high temp but because of this it also has limitations. My theory is this oil is filled with metals and is what I call a "hard" oil in which it last long but beats up on the motor when used for everyday normal use. I also think redline stays "thick" in higher temps and not allowing the top end to receive adequate lubrication during normal riding. Then you have the conventional "soft" oils which don't have alot of metals or detergents they also shear quickly dont last nearly as long but the plus side is they are not as abrasive as the "hard" oils. This is just my theory. I have viewed many many UOA not only from motorcycles but also other vehicles and there is always some excuse to justify why certain synthetics have bad or just average numbers. The only advantage I see to synthetic high dollar oil is that they last a few miles longer. I have not seen any proof that they prevent wear, dissipate heat, increase MPG or anything else, any my own experience has verified this. I plan to test the Valvoline that I am using both by UOA and real world application as I plan to shim the rockerboxes again and see how long before they start rattling again.
You've completely lost me.
I was attempting to answer your question about the testing methods and the reasons why the Fe and Cu numbers are higher with certain oils/engines. To clarify I think no matter what testing procedure is used I may see the same results either due to the design of the engine or the oil having heavy amounts of metal in it from the manufacture. My theory is that high amounts of Moly, zinc, and other anti-wear metals may actually contribute to increased wear at a certain point. I dont know what the balance is all I know is that all the UOA's I have seen using redline have been high in Fe and Cu. This to me indicates wear. Also I often see an excuse to justify this phenomenon I have seen many UOA including Mobil 1, Amsoil, and many other synthetics returning less than desirable results and its usually defended by some excuse, and your excuse was that the Redline may be cleaning the Fe and Cu from the engine and then you suggested to do more in depth testing which is another excuse. I just believe that if the product is good it would need no justification. This would be evident no matter if its one UOA or many other even more complicated testing procedures. If this oil was so great as many say I would have gotten a much better report like I expected.
 
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Did Blackstone say what the "Universal Averages" mileage was? For my Sportster, the universal averages they use are based on 2500 miles (the average number of miles on the oils they had samples of for my engine type) If you run longer than the universal average you should expect to see more iron and copper as these wear metals increase with miles. I suspect the Red Line UOAs are are longer thus show more copper and iron. Example Universal average are 2500 miles, your use was 4000 miles- 4000 / 2500 = 1.6 If iron in the universal averages is 10 I would expect 1.6 * 10 = 16 to be the iron number in 4000 miles.
 
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Originally Posted By: fireaxxe
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Originally Posted By: fireaxxe
Not sure but the only reason I questioned Redline in the first place is that I shimmed the rockerboxes 5k miles ago and the valvetrain is getting loud again. So to me this indicates wear. I have the feeling that Redline is a good oil for racing and high temp but because of this it also has limitations. My theory is this oil is filled with metals and is what I call a "hard" oil in which it last long but beats up on the motor when used for everyday normal use. I also think redline stays "thick" in higher temps and not allowing the top end to receive adequate lubrication during normal riding. Then you have the conventional "soft" oils which don't have alot of metals or detergents they also shear quickly dont last nearly as long but the plus side is they are not as abrasive as the "hard" oils. This is just my theory. I have viewed many many UOA not only from motorcycles but also other vehicles and there is always some excuse to justify why certain synthetics have bad or just average numbers. The only advantage I see to synthetic high dollar oil is that they last a few miles longer. I have not seen any proof that they prevent wear, dissipate heat, increase MPG or anything else, any my own experience has verified this. I plan to test the Valvoline that I am using both by UOA and real world application as I plan to shim the rockerboxes again and see how long before they start rattling again.
You've completely lost me.
I was attempting to answer your question about the testing methods and the reasons why the Fe and Cu numbers are higher with certain oils/engines. To clarify I think no matter what testing procedure is used I may see the same results either due to the design of the engine or the oil having heavy amounts of metal in it from the manufacture. My theory is that high amounts of Moly, zinc, and other anti-wear metals may actually contribute to increased wear at a certain point. I dont know what the balance is all I know is that all the UOA's I have seen using redline have been high in Fe and Cu. This to me indicates wear. Also I often see an excuse to justify this phenomenon I have seen many UOA including Mobil 1, Amsoil, and many other synthetics returning less than desirable results and its usually defended by some excuse, and your excuse was that the Redline may be cleaning the Fe and Cu from the engine and then you suggested to do more in depth testing which is another excuse. I just believe that if the product is good it would need no justification. This would be evident no matter if its one UOA or many other even more complicated testing procedures. If this oil was so great as many say I would have gotten a much better report like I expected.
Your theory is incorrect. So stop using it as your guide to choosing a lubricant. A few ppm in a used oil analysis is meaningless. So judging a lubricant by those numbers is foolish. Redline lubricants are among the best available. And wear cannot be gauged using a used oil analysis. You have much to learn here padawan. I suggest you clear your mind of your preconceived notions and start from scratch. Look up our esteemed member Doug hillary and start with his posts. Go back about 10 years and read everything he's written. Then move on to Molekule. Once your done with a decade of Molekule's posts move on to Dnewtons. His post will teach you about normalcy. Once you gotten those washed down you'll be in a slightly better position as far as interpreting a used oil analysis because right now you aren't even close. Not trying to be rude,just stating the obvious. Report back once you've absorbed everything those 3 men have written. You'll see more clearly I assure you.
 
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If your looking for less iron in your oil I cant help but feel you will attain that goal with Valvoline VR1 or their motorcycle oil, conventional or synthetic over your expensive Red Line. Heck Im sure I will do better with my current conventional HD360 over Red Line. Actually I always use the conventional in my bikes but all the above have syn as well. Anyway, some people feel better paying high prices for boutique motor oil but its all based on " 95% marketing and 100% opinion unless otherwise proven" (someone else's quote in here) The only boutique oil I ever would pay for would be Amsoil, at least they provide you with standardized tests to help you compare what you are paying for. Ps. I have a lot of respect for Valvoline oil, not sure what I will use in the future, right now the HD360 as it is only on its original oil change (14 Road King) From UOAs the Conventional 360 had low wear numbers in other peoples uoas.
 
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Id try the VR1 too, or something that's historically shown good uoa's on Harleys as a last resort. Otherwise you just have a motor that's eating itself more than normal and no oil will change that, and of course you have modified the motor which could also factor.
 

fireaxxe

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I see your not very good at reading post Clevy. My theory is not based on a few parts per million but on many different variables. You should pay better attention to what people are saying. Like I said before I have seen many UOA's and to add I have heard good and bad things about this oil from friends and other forums. And my personal experience suggest to me that this oil is wearing out my valvetrain. And from the sound of you post it seems that your just regurgitating the experiences of those "3 men" I dont know you and you seem to be a big fan of Redline. That is perfectly ok but I am not and I am putting out facts like my UOA and my personal experiences so that others can judge. So since you have you judgment based mainly on the experiences of others I hope this satisfies you. So when you get back to the Redline lab to finish work for the day look into this would ya.
 

fireaxxe

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Originally Posted By: alarmguy
If your looking for less iron in your oil I cant help but feel you will attain that goal with Valvoline VR1 or their motorcycle oil, conventional or synthetic over your expensive Red Line. Heck Im sure I will do better with my current conventional HD360 over Red Line. Actually I always use the conventional in my bikes but all the above have syn as well. Anyway, some people feel better paying high prices for boutique motor oil but its all based on " 95% marketing and 100% opinion unless otherwise proven" (someone else's quote in here) The only boutique oil I ever would pay for would be Amsoil, at least they provide you with standardized tests to help you compare what you are paying for. Ps. I have a lot of respect for Valvoline oil, not sure what I will use in the future, right now the HD360 as it is only on its original oil change (14 Road King) From UOAs the Conventional 360 had low wear numbers in other peoples uoas.
Agreed!
 

fireaxxe

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Originally Posted By: shanneba
Did Blackstone say what the "Universal Averages" mileage was? For my Sportster, the universal averages they use are based on 2500 miles (the average number of miles on the oils they had samples of for my engine type) If you run longer than the universal average you should expect to see more iron and copper as these wear metals increase with miles. I suspect the Red Line UOAs are are longer thus show more copper and iron. Example Universal average are 2500 miles, your use was 4000 miles- 4000 / 2500 = 1.6 If iron in the universal averages is 10 I would expect 1.6 * 10 = 16 to be the iron number in 4000 miles.
Yes they said it was based on 4200 miles and I had 3950miles on this oil which produced those universal averages with a shorter oil run. However the oil was in the bike for 1.5 years.
 
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You are within about 6% of the universal averages mileage. One thing we don't know is if or how many of the samples they have in the universal averages had bigger cams, it seems like longer duration / higher lift cams would add additional stress to the cams, lifters and valve train. This might explain why you are slightly higher than the average wear numbers on iron.
 
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Quote:
Samples taken from an external oil tank like your motorcycle can usually read higher in wear particles and very carefully controlled, repeatable sampling methods must be used
Since when does a Road King have an External oil tank???????
 
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Quote:
Yes they said it was based on 4200 miles and I had 3950miles on this oil which produced those universal averages with a shorter oil run. However the oil was in the bike for 1.5 years.
Why changing oil early unless it gives you peace of mind. The OCI for your bike is 5k? However with that said most oils have a time-shelf life once in an engine and used. What is Redline? 6 months, or 1 year? Another words, you may be better served changing the oil once a year vs. every 4k miles cause it looks like you're not riding that much.
 
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Originally Posted By: rossn2
Quote:
Samples taken from an external oil tank like your motorcycle can usually read higher in wear particles and very carefully controlled, repeatable sampling methods must be used
Since when does a Road King have an External oil tank???????
As long as there has been a Road King.
 
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