My go to if I can't find a fancy oil for a better price is Castrol TTS.
Recommended dirtbike 2 stroke oil
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Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Just picked up a super clean '99 Yamaha YZ125 for my son and was wondering what 2 stroke oil you guys recommend. I've been out of the dirtbike world for many years...my last dirtbike was 1984 YZ125 which I used Yamalube oil.
The guy I purchased it from said he only used Castor brand oil. I thought he really meant Castrol, but he showed me the bottle. Never heard of Castor oil. Here it is: http://www.maximausa.com/product/castor-927/
Any recommendations and tips I appreciate from the BITOG gurus.
Castor isn't really a brand, its the bean the oil comes from. Popular with racers, and the additive in the "original" Castrol, hence the name. Tends to coke up a lot but very high film strength so resistant to seizure.
As described, that Castor 927 stuff is quite a sophisticated mix and may at least partly get around the coking problem.
I use Castrol 2T, Mobil 2T or Kymco 2T. The latter is the most expensive and seems to smoke a bit less, but you probably can't get it in the US. I've been told, but can't confirm, that its re-branded Motul.
Which Castrol or Mobil 2T do you use? if the Kymco is more expensive, I suspect the others are semi-syn and the Kymco synthetic?
Whatever they carry in Carrefour or RT-Mart. 2-stroke oil is still widely available here, but there's been a heavy cull on the street lately (most 2-strokes here are 50 cc scooters) with talk of local bans, so it might get harder to find.
I don't have any bottles to hand, but the writing is often in Mandarin anyway. I think you're probably right about the Kymco stuff being synthetic.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Just picked up a super clean '99 Yamaha YZ125 for my son and was wondering what 2 stroke oil you guys recommend. I've been out of the dirtbike world for many years...my last dirtbike was 1984 YZ125 which I used Yamalube oil.
The guy I purchased it from said he only used Castor brand oil. I thought he really meant Castrol, but he showed me the bottle. Never heard of Castor oil. Here it is: http://www.maximausa.com/product/castor-927/
Any recommendations and tips I appreciate from the BITOG gurus.
Castor isn't really a brand, its the bean the oil comes from. Popular with racers, and the additive in the "original" Castrol, hence the name. Tends to coke up a lot but very high film strength so resistant to seizure.
As described, that Castor 927 stuff is quite a sophisticated mix and may at least partly get around the coking problem.
I use Castrol 2T, Mobil 2T or Kymco 2T. The latter is the most expensive and seems to smoke a bit less, but you probably can't get it in the US. I've been told, but can't confirm, that its re-branded Motul.
Which Castrol or Mobil 2T do you use? if the Kymco is more expensive, I suspect the others are semi-syn and the Kymco synthetic?
Whatever they carry in Carrefour or RT-Mart. 2-stroke oil is still widely available here, but there's been a heavy cull on the street lately (most 2-strokes here are 50 cc scooters) with talk of local bans, so it might get harder to find.
I don't have any bottles to hand, but the writing is often in Mandarin anyway. I think you're probably right about the Kymco stuff being synthetic.
Originally Posted By: bigdreama
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I had bad rod bearings from my son constantly running it at low RPMs while the chute was partially clogged up.
Why in the world would he run it like that?
We all love our kids but they do the darndest things sometimes.
LOL he didn't like the engine noise and it made dust when he ran it through the part of the yard where the dogs play. I told him several times when I would catch him doing it. Engine is fine now. I didn't know what was wrong with it when I ordered parts, so it got a complete rebuild. I have all the old parts saved because my brother had an old F Series that needs a rebuild also. All he needs for his is rod bearings now, so I saved him some $$$. His is a 1979, though. Mine is a 1995 or 6 I bought new in '99. These engines are tough, but I found out the hard way you gotta keep the RPMs up under load or it will hammer away the connecting rod needles.
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I had bad rod bearings from my son constantly running it at low RPMs while the chute was partially clogged up.
Why in the world would he run it like that?
We all love our kids but they do the darndest things sometimes.
LOL he didn't like the engine noise and it made dust when he ran it through the part of the yard where the dogs play. I told him several times when I would catch him doing it. Engine is fine now. I didn't know what was wrong with it when I ordered parts, so it got a complete rebuild. I have all the old parts saved because my brother had an old F Series that needs a rebuild also. All he needs for his is rod bearings now, so I saved him some $$$. His is a 1979, though. Mine is a 1995 or 6 I bought new in '99. These engines are tough, but I found out the hard way you gotta keep the RPMs up under load or it will hammer away the connecting rod needles.
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Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: bigdreama
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I had bad rod bearings from my son constantly running it at low RPMs while the chute was partially clogged up.
Why in the world would he run it like that?
We all love our kids but they do the darndest things sometimes.
LOL he didn't like the engine noise and it made dust when he ran it through the part of the yard where the dogs play. I told him several times when I would catch him doing it. Engine is fine now. I didn't know what was wrong with it when I ordered parts, so it got a complete rebuild. I have all the old parts saved because my brother had an old F Series that needs a rebuild also. All he needs for his is rod bearings now, so I saved him some $$$. His is a 1979, though. Mine is a 1995 or 6 I bought new in '99. These engines are tough, but I found out the hard way you gotta keep the RPMs up under load or it will hammer away the connecting rod needles.
What mix ratio did you run in it?
Originally Posted By: bigdreama
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I had bad rod bearings from my son constantly running it at low RPMs while the chute was partially clogged up.
Why in the world would he run it like that?
We all love our kids but they do the darndest things sometimes.
LOL he didn't like the engine noise and it made dust when he ran it through the part of the yard where the dogs play. I told him several times when I would catch him doing it. Engine is fine now. I didn't know what was wrong with it when I ordered parts, so it got a complete rebuild. I have all the old parts saved because my brother had an old F Series that needs a rebuild also. All he needs for his is rod bearings now, so I saved him some $$$. His is a 1979, though. Mine is a 1995 or 6 I bought new in '99. These engines are tough, but I found out the hard way you gotta keep the RPMs up under load or it will hammer away the connecting rod needles.
What mix ratio did you run in it?
Any of the modern oils labeled EG-D, or FC, FD will work perfectly. I'm not at all convinced there is any significant difference between them. All of them will provide adequate protection at the proper ratio. None of them are magic.
Mobil 1, MX2t was always a favorite of those of us professionals who also operate 2 stroke bikes. It's current replacement is Castrol TT-S (or RS-TTS) depending on market location. Both are clean burning, robust, trouble free oils. Maxima 927 is well liked, but it will gum up powervalves and create more frequent maintenance.
Redline Racing Oil, is not recommended. It's formulation accelerates corrosion on brass (such as carb jets) and steel internal parts. While it is a robust oil, it's not a great choice for the recreational rider due to the corrosion issues and subsequent engine failures. Quote: "I will never ever use Redline again, for exactly the reasons you mention. It tarnishes the carb brass, clogs the jets if allowed to sit without being drained, and allows surface rust to form on the crank. I used it for an entire top-end life, and will never touch it again"
During my years testing 2 stroke oils, the most important issue is ratio. There are no "magic" oils that will prevent wear at ultra lean 100 to 1 ratios, regardless of the claims. Sure, some engines are low stress, and can operate at low output without undue wear at 100 to 1. For the rest of us, 50 to 1 is the point at which wear rates become acceptable and 32 to 1 is better still. There was never a point in our testing where a brand of oil provided significantly more protection and allowed absurdly lean oil ratios.
Furthermore, more oil makes more power. All the way up to 8 to 1. Though that ratio is difficult to keep running at idle and low speeds! 16 to 1 is about the practical limit. Kart guys (modified 125cc motocross engines) often use 20 to 1, for a good balance between power, reliability and wear.
Mobil 1, MX2t was always a favorite of those of us professionals who also operate 2 stroke bikes. It's current replacement is Castrol TT-S (or RS-TTS) depending on market location. Both are clean burning, robust, trouble free oils. Maxima 927 is well liked, but it will gum up powervalves and create more frequent maintenance.
Redline Racing Oil, is not recommended. It's formulation accelerates corrosion on brass (such as carb jets) and steel internal parts. While it is a robust oil, it's not a great choice for the recreational rider due to the corrosion issues and subsequent engine failures. Quote: "I will never ever use Redline again, for exactly the reasons you mention. It tarnishes the carb brass, clogs the jets if allowed to sit without being drained, and allows surface rust to form on the crank. I used it for an entire top-end life, and will never touch it again"
During my years testing 2 stroke oils, the most important issue is ratio. There are no "magic" oils that will prevent wear at ultra lean 100 to 1 ratios, regardless of the claims. Sure, some engines are low stress, and can operate at low output without undue wear at 100 to 1. For the rest of us, 50 to 1 is the point at which wear rates become acceptable and 32 to 1 is better still. There was never a point in our testing where a brand of oil provided significantly more protection and allowed absurdly lean oil ratios.
Furthermore, more oil makes more power. All the way up to 8 to 1. Though that ratio is difficult to keep running at idle and low speeds! 16 to 1 is about the practical limit. Kart guys (modified 125cc motocross engines) often use 20 to 1, for a good balance between power, reliability and wear.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Any of the modern oils labeled EG-D, or FC, FD will work perfectly. I'm not at all convinced there is any significant difference between them. All of them will provide adequate protection at the proper ratio. None of them are magic.
Some are ester based (motul 800, Ipone Samurai 2T,...)
Some are 100% synthetic ( Omv 2T-S, Agip I-Ride Moto 2t)
Some are semisyn....
Some are mix of synthetic and castor oil ( Agip Racing 2T)
Yes they are all the same
No differences here.....just different pricing
Any of the modern oils labeled EG-D, or FC, FD will work perfectly. I'm not at all convinced there is any significant difference between them. All of them will provide adequate protection at the proper ratio. None of them are magic.
Some are ester based (motul 800, Ipone Samurai 2T,...)
Some are 100% synthetic ( Omv 2T-S, Agip I-Ride Moto 2t)
Some are semisyn....
Some are mix of synthetic and castor oil ( Agip Racing 2T)
Yes they are all the same
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Any of the modern oils labeled EG-D, or FC, FD will work perfectly. I'm not at all convinced there is any significant difference between them. All of them will provide adequate protection at the proper ratio. None of them are magic.
Some are ester based (motul 800, Ipone Samurai 2T,...)
Some are 100% synthetic ( Omv 2T-S, Agip I-Ride Moto 2t)
Some are semisyn....
Some are mix of synthetic and castor oil ( Agip Racing 2T)
Yes they are all the same
No differences here.....just different pricing
My point was really that any of the EG-D, or FC, FD or better oils, will provide adequate protection. None of them will double your engine life. Testing clearly shows that individual engines have a given service life at a given oil ratio. I don't believe Motul 800 for example meets any spec other than TC, they simply claim it's above all standards, which is clearly not true, while 800 is an extremely robust oil, it does not meet EG-D requirements for cleanliness. Same goes for Castor based oils.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Any of the modern oils labeled EG-D, or FC, FD will work perfectly. I'm not at all convinced there is any significant difference between them. All of them will provide adequate protection at the proper ratio. None of them are magic.
Some are ester based (motul 800, Ipone Samurai 2T,...)
Some are 100% synthetic ( Omv 2T-S, Agip I-Ride Moto 2t)
Some are semisyn....
Some are mix of synthetic and castor oil ( Agip Racing 2T)
Yes they are all the same
My point was really that any of the EG-D, or FC, FD or better oils, will provide adequate protection. None of them will double your engine life. Testing clearly shows that individual engines have a given service life at a given oil ratio. I don't believe Motul 800 for example meets any spec other than TC, they simply claim it's above all standards, which is clearly not true, while 800 is an extremely robust oil, it does not meet EG-D requirements for cleanliness. Same goes for Castor based oils.
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In line with choosing an oil - what ratio are you guys recommending. The manual calls for 32:1. I hear some folks recommending 40:1, 50:1 and as low as 15:1 but only during break in of the top end. I will probably run what the manual says and adjust from there depending on how it runs, smokes and how the plug looks.
Another vote for Klotz.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
In line with choosing an oil - what ratio are you guys recommending. The manual calls for 32:1. I hear some folks recommending 40:1, 50:1 and as low as 15:1 but only during break in of the top end. I will probably run what the manual says and adjust from there depending on how it runs, smokes and how the plug looks.
changing the oil ratio based on smoke and plug is putting the cart before the horse
In line with choosing an oil - what ratio are you guys recommending. The manual calls for 32:1. I hear some folks recommending 40:1, 50:1 and as low as 15:1 but only during break in of the top end. I will probably run what the manual says and adjust from there depending on how it runs, smokes and how the plug looks.
changing the oil ratio based on smoke and plug is putting the cart before the horse
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
In line with choosing an oil - what ratio are you guys recommending.
Regarding that I am always using 100% synthetic OR ester based 2stroke oils....15-22EUR/Liter
My advice is always......3% ratio for tuned engines.....anything else is GTG with 2%
In line with choosing an oil - what ratio are you guys recommending.
Regarding that I am always using 100% synthetic OR ester based 2stroke oils....15-22EUR/Liter
My advice is always......3% ratio for tuned engines.....anything else is GTG with 2%
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
In line with choosing an oil - what ratio are you guys recommending. The manual calls for 32:1. I hear some folks recommending 40:1, 50:1 and as low as 15:1 but only during break in of the top end. I will probably run what the manual says and adjust from there depending on how it runs, smokes and how the plug looks.
I use 32 to 1 in everything. In testing, 32 to 1 provided as much protection as most high performance engines need. With the notable exception of ultra high output Kart engines. Those tend to need 20 to 1, but these high end kart engines also make quite a bit more power. Put another way, in our testing, wear rates did not improve with more oil beyond 32 to 1.
However, both 50 to 1 and especially 100 to 1 showed more wear. In fact, 100 to 1 resulted in much more wear, regardless of oil type.
Lawn equipment that makes a whopping 1.2 HP does just fine at 50 to 1. A 125cc motocross engine makes 35HP at the rear wheel. More than 40 at the crank. HP per cc matters, a lot.
In line with choosing an oil - what ratio are you guys recommending. The manual calls for 32:1. I hear some folks recommending 40:1, 50:1 and as low as 15:1 but only during break in of the top end. I will probably run what the manual says and adjust from there depending on how it runs, smokes and how the plug looks.
I use 32 to 1 in everything. In testing, 32 to 1 provided as much protection as most high performance engines need. With the notable exception of ultra high output Kart engines. Those tend to need 20 to 1, but these high end kart engines also make quite a bit more power. Put another way, in our testing, wear rates did not improve with more oil beyond 32 to 1.
However, both 50 to 1 and especially 100 to 1 showed more wear. In fact, 100 to 1 resulted in much more wear, regardless of oil type.
Lawn equipment that makes a whopping 1.2 HP does just fine at 50 to 1. A 125cc motocross engine makes 35HP at the rear wheel. More than 40 at the crank. HP per cc matters, a lot.
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I used and loved Mobil 2T, but they stopped selling it in the US. So I tried ELF brand and it was good to go. I no longer ride so I use the left over ELF in my weed whacker and chainsaw
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
In line with choosing an oil - what ratio are you guys recommending. The manual calls for 32:1. I hear some folks recommending 40:1, 50:1 and as low as 15:1 but only during break in of the top end. I will probably run what the manual says and adjust from there depending on how it runs, smokes and how the plug looks.
I use 32 to 1 in everything. In testing, 32 to 1 provided as much protection as most high performance engines need. With the notable exception of ultra high output Kart engines. Those tend to need 20 to 1, but these high end kart engines also make quite a bit more power. Put another way, in our testing, wear rates did not improve with more oil beyond 32 to 1.
However, both 50 to 1 and especially 100 to 1 showed more wear. In fact, 100 to 1 resulted in much more wear, regardless of oil type.
Lawn equipment that makes a whopping 1.2 HP does just fine at 50 to 1. A 125cc motocross engine makes 35HP at the rear wheel. More than 40 at the crank. HP per cc matters, a lot.
exactly!
i saw a study done where they made the 2stroke oil every so slightly radioactive and then xrayed the running engine to determine how long the various ratios of oil actually stayed in the crank case (ie providing lube to the crank bearings) and at 100:1 it was in milliseconds, at 50:1 tenths, at 40:1 almost 1 full second and at 32:1 over 2secs and around 5+secs at 20:1. that study was from a few years ago and no i cannot find the link. dag nabbit!
also of note, most super hp 2strokes dont actually spin any faster than the super hp 4strokes.
just look at any of the 600cc street rockets at 15k+ as an example
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
In line with choosing an oil - what ratio are you guys recommending. The manual calls for 32:1. I hear some folks recommending 40:1, 50:1 and as low as 15:1 but only during break in of the top end. I will probably run what the manual says and adjust from there depending on how it runs, smokes and how the plug looks.
I use 32 to 1 in everything. In testing, 32 to 1 provided as much protection as most high performance engines need. With the notable exception of ultra high output Kart engines. Those tend to need 20 to 1, but these high end kart engines also make quite a bit more power. Put another way, in our testing, wear rates did not improve with more oil beyond 32 to 1.
However, both 50 to 1 and especially 100 to 1 showed more wear. In fact, 100 to 1 resulted in much more wear, regardless of oil type.
Lawn equipment that makes a whopping 1.2 HP does just fine at 50 to 1. A 125cc motocross engine makes 35HP at the rear wheel. More than 40 at the crank. HP per cc matters, a lot.
exactly!
i saw a study done where they made the 2stroke oil every so slightly radioactive and then xrayed the running engine to determine how long the various ratios of oil actually stayed in the crank case (ie providing lube to the crank bearings) and at 100:1 it was in milliseconds, at 50:1 tenths, at 40:1 almost 1 full second and at 32:1 over 2secs and around 5+secs at 20:1. that study was from a few years ago and no i cannot find the link. dag nabbit!
also of note, most super hp 2strokes dont actually spin any faster than the super hp 4strokes.
just look at any of the 600cc street rockets at 15k+ as an example
Originally Posted By: sunruh
also of note, most super hp 2strokes dont actually spin any faster than the super hp 4strokes.
just look at any of the 600cc street rockets at 15k+ as an example
That is true! While 2 strokes sound like they rev higher, it's simply the combustion event on every rotation vs every other rotation. Most 2 stroke engines run lower RPM than comparable 4 strokes. Even the highest RPM 125cc shifter Karts run "only" 14,000, less than some modern street bikes!
What remains interesting is the amazing HP per displacement of a small, well tuned 2 stroke. Kart 125cc engines have been tuned to achieve 50HP, for 2.5cc per HP or more commonly stated as 400hp/L! Interestingly, there are world record setting 50cc two stroke engines in the 22HP range!
When an engine can produce 400HP/L, it's a good idea to run enough oil, and to use a good quality oil.
also of note, most super hp 2strokes dont actually spin any faster than the super hp 4strokes.
just look at any of the 600cc street rockets at 15k+ as an example
That is true! While 2 strokes sound like they rev higher, it's simply the combustion event on every rotation vs every other rotation. Most 2 stroke engines run lower RPM than comparable 4 strokes. Even the highest RPM 125cc shifter Karts run "only" 14,000, less than some modern street bikes!
What remains interesting is the amazing HP per displacement of a small, well tuned 2 stroke. Kart 125cc engines have been tuned to achieve 50HP, for 2.5cc per HP or more commonly stated as 400hp/L! Interestingly, there are world record setting 50cc two stroke engines in the 22HP range!
When an engine can produce 400HP/L, it's a good idea to run enough oil, and to use a good quality oil.
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Perhaps this is the document you are searching:
http://www.maximausa.com/technical papers/
If not, still very interesting nevertheless.
http://www.maximausa.com/technical papers/
If not, still very interesting nevertheless.
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Amsoil Saber...40:1 to 100:1
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