MrQuackers
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From a 90's S Series...
Recalls & more recalls. Cars are now too complex!
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With the added complexity now,the life of the vehicle is highly dependent on parts availability and servicing knowhow.Do you really think in 10 years the center display screen or nearly any of the computer controlled goodies will still be available at the dealers? GM dropped the electrical unit in some power steering pumps years ago for 2000/2002 trucks..and its not available aftermarket.
Still wish I had my 1979 Ford Bronco. None of this complicated junk, easy to work on, darn reliable, and a true beast. Sure, not all the bells and whistles of the new stuff, but it really isn't needed anyway.
The recalls are not on anything that complex typically. An obvious one is the ignition switch recently for GM.
The reality is now folks realize cars have common problems and reporting aggregating information is way better. Media is much more prevelant down to forums like this.
I don't think cars are worst just more defects are known.
The reality is now folks realize cars have common problems and reporting aggregating information is way better. Media is much more prevelant down to forums like this.
I don't think cars are worst just more defects are known.
I drive a standard shift roll up window Chevy Colorado, doesn't get much simpler, and I like it that way.
The reliability has been excellent, other than a battery at 90 thousand miles, and a new resistor pack for the ac blower at 125,000 miles, its been a an excellent work tool.
I agree the issues with most these companies is quality is not at the top of the list , cost cutting is.
The reliability has been excellent, other than a battery at 90 thousand miles, and a new resistor pack for the ac blower at 125,000 miles, its been a an excellent work tool.
I agree the issues with most these companies is quality is not at the top of the list , cost cutting is.
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Originally Posted By: Vikas
Which is this vehicle with the 6300 rpm redline? The instrument cluster looks like a 4 cyl Japanese vehicle.
It's a SL2/SC2/SW2 with the twin cam engine and a 6500 RPM redline. From the analog odometer I'd put it as a 95-97 MY.
It was styled after every mid 1980s Japanese car but corporate politics delayed its introduction... and cancellation.
Stayed 2300 lbs through its model run into 2002.
Which is this vehicle with the 6300 rpm redline? The instrument cluster looks like a 4 cyl Japanese vehicle.
It's a SL2/SC2/SW2 with the twin cam engine and a 6500 RPM redline. From the analog odometer I'd put it as a 95-97 MY.
It was styled after every mid 1980s Japanese car but corporate politics delayed its introduction... and cancellation.
Stayed 2300 lbs through its model run into 2002.
"Simple" cars today are far more complex than cars of just 10-15 years ago. "Complexity" doesn't mean having power windows or roll-em-up-yourself. Complexity means fully-integrated engine and transmission computer control that can fail on the back of one lazy sensor. Complexity means having federally-mandated stability control systems and rigorous emission control systems and multiple active and passive passenger restraint systems.
I don't think I'd call anything made since about 2000 "simple".
Simple is a '70s Nova with a 2-bbl and four on the floor.
I don't think I'd call anything made since about 2000 "simple".
Simple is a '70s Nova with a 2-bbl and four on the floor.
The Versas have DI now
That's disappointing.
That's disappointing.
Originally Posted By: Miller88
The Versas have DI now
And have had stability control, anti-lock brakes, brake force distribution, electronic brake assist, multiple airbag systems, TPMS, continuously variable valve timing, Bluetooth, etc.
I don't think the Versa qualifies as "simple". Fewer bells and whistles than a Maxima to be sure. But the basic fundamentals are still very complex, relying on many electronic sensors and subsystems for proper operation.
The Versas have DI now
And have had stability control, anti-lock brakes, brake force distribution, electronic brake assist, multiple airbag systems, TPMS, continuously variable valve timing, Bluetooth, etc.
I don't think the Versa qualifies as "simple". Fewer bells and whistles than a Maxima to be sure. But the basic fundamentals are still very complex, relying on many electronic sensors and subsystems for proper operation.
What bothers me about new cars is that they are still built to last only a short time. Its also getting harder with more complex cars to milk out the last few years as they do need a few more systems to function properly to get you down the road.
Its a bit frustrating that the car buying population doesn't demand that their $20-30-40-50k vehicle not rust out in a decade or less. But people want new and shiney, when really, the basic requirements of a car hasn't changed in many years.
Its a bit frustrating that the car buying population doesn't demand that their $20-30-40-50k vehicle not rust out in a decade or less. But people want new and shiney, when really, the basic requirements of a car hasn't changed in many years.
The newer the car, the less interested I am in it. I love some of the new sportier cars being made but I have a hard time actually wanting them since I keep cars a really long time and don't want to deal with a bunch of problems I have no idea how to fix as it ages.
Originally Posted By: Doog
+1 agreed. What only lasted 100k now easily goes to 200k
That is only partially true though. Sure the drive train will go 200k easily, but what about all the electronically controlled stuff? What about the flimsy plastic pieces that get brittle and break?
The drive trains aren't the problem on newer cars at all, it is all the complex systems that control them. The cars from the '80s and '90s weren't all amazingly reliable, but they were certainly a lot easier to fix. Ever had to replace a computer on a newer car or chase electrical gremlins? It is literally something that will give you nightmares. One of my mechanic friends had a customer come in with a newer Cadillac. It would randomly shut down on the highway and everything electronic would lock up. The transmission would sometimes shift erratically or not shift at all. These were major driveability problems that the dealer couldn't figure out since there were no codes. My friend ended up having to trace miles of wire and found a shorted connector somewhere causing all the issues.
Seeing 5 year old cars with rusted frames is also ridiculous. Who in their right mind would pay $50k for a car that will belong in a junkyard in 6 years due to the underside being so terrible? I see 3 year old GM trucks that have rust around the wheel wells. Some of them are $60k luxury pickups.
Anyone who thinks newer cars are built "better" is missing something. Do they have more features? Yes. More comfort? Yes. Are they built to be disposable? Absolutely. Do you think they will have all the software to fix the computer systems for today's cars ten years down the road after the next generation of devices comes out? Probably not. The same thing happens with disposable devices like cell phones and PCs. Once a new one comes out good luck finding support for the old one.
Combine the lack of quality control with consumers who fail to maintain vehicles regularly and you will have vehicles that won't last long at all. Add in the fact that many manufacturers actually advertise and tell customers that they don't need to maintain the cars (lifetime fluids, etc) and the service life of vehicles becomes even shorter.
+1 agreed. What only lasted 100k now easily goes to 200k
That is only partially true though. Sure the drive train will go 200k easily, but what about all the electronically controlled stuff? What about the flimsy plastic pieces that get brittle and break?
The drive trains aren't the problem on newer cars at all, it is all the complex systems that control them. The cars from the '80s and '90s weren't all amazingly reliable, but they were certainly a lot easier to fix. Ever had to replace a computer on a newer car or chase electrical gremlins? It is literally something that will give you nightmares. One of my mechanic friends had a customer come in with a newer Cadillac. It would randomly shut down on the highway and everything electronic would lock up. The transmission would sometimes shift erratically or not shift at all. These were major driveability problems that the dealer couldn't figure out since there were no codes. My friend ended up having to trace miles of wire and found a shorted connector somewhere causing all the issues.
Seeing 5 year old cars with rusted frames is also ridiculous. Who in their right mind would pay $50k for a car that will belong in a junkyard in 6 years due to the underside being so terrible? I see 3 year old GM trucks that have rust around the wheel wells. Some of them are $60k luxury pickups.
Anyone who thinks newer cars are built "better" is missing something. Do they have more features? Yes. More comfort? Yes. Are they built to be disposable? Absolutely. Do you think they will have all the software to fix the computer systems for today's cars ten years down the road after the next generation of devices comes out? Probably not. The same thing happens with disposable devices like cell phones and PCs. Once a new one comes out good luck finding support for the old one.
Combine the lack of quality control with consumers who fail to maintain vehicles regularly and you will have vehicles that won't last long at all. Add in the fact that many manufacturers actually advertise and tell customers that they don't need to maintain the cars (lifetime fluids, etc) and the service life of vehicles becomes even shorter.
I'm still running a 91 Jetta TD. So far it has 251k on the odometer. Sad to say it is going down hill, using a quart every 400 miles. It is a tough little car that still gets me 50mpg. But it isn't the cleanest burning things. LOL Super easy to work on. I grew up with my parents getting a brand new 79 Rabbit diesel. If I new then what I know now, we would still own it.
I see a lot of "the sky is falling" posts, but the reality proves otherwise. I think a lot of people are simply intimidated by the "computers" in modern cars. There is nothing mythical about having ECMs controlling various functions of the car. They do not change the basic diagnostic principles that every tech should know, but most don't.
Is it the computer's fault that most techs are parts changers and have no clue how to diagnose problems?
Sure, you can have some serious issues that will be very hard to diagnose. Those are mostly hardware related such as bad solders frayed wires or bad caps, but majority of times the fault does not lie with the ECM, but the sensors feeding the wrong information. Those are usually fairly easy to diagnose thanks to OBDII and a multimeter.
Things like rust and cheap, brittle plastics I totally agree on, but it's not like we did not have these issues in the past.
Is it the computer's fault that most techs are parts changers and have no clue how to diagnose problems?
Sure, you can have some serious issues that will be very hard to diagnose. Those are mostly hardware related such as bad solders frayed wires or bad caps, but majority of times the fault does not lie with the ECM, but the sensors feeding the wrong information. Those are usually fairly easy to diagnose thanks to OBDII and a multimeter.
Things like rust and cheap, brittle plastics I totally agree on, but it's not like we did not have these issues in the past.
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
The cars from the '80s and '90s weren't all amazingly reliable, but they were certainly a lot easier to fix.
I'm going to have to beg to differ on this one! The under-hood of either of our current cars ('05 MDX and '08 CR-V) is orders of magnitude less complicated than on my 1984 Oldsmobile Cutlass. That choking 307 V-8 must have had 27 miles of vacuum line under the hood. Try tracing a problem on THAT car.
I have found modern materials and build quality to be far superior to that of 10-20 years ago. Plastic door panels may not be as comfortable as soft velour, but they don't show wear/rub spots after 100k miles either. Both of our vehicles have 100k miles, give or take 10k miles on either side, and neither one looks any more aged than the day it left the factory.
I have found modern electronics to be far easier to diagnose than older stuff. That '84 Cutlass had a very rudimentary computer-controlled carburetor, where the mixture control solenoid was controlled by the computer, but that was it. It still had vacuum choke pull-offs and vacuum-modulated secondary butterflies, and a vacuum-controlled cruise control module. The miles of vacuum lines on that engine were enough for any mechanic to go grey or bald from constant hair-pulling!
I'm not arguing that modern cars are more simple than those of 20 years ago. But I do believe that they're built better; and that their systems are more durable and easier to repair.
The cars from the '80s and '90s weren't all amazingly reliable, but they were certainly a lot easier to fix.
I'm going to have to beg to differ on this one! The under-hood of either of our current cars ('05 MDX and '08 CR-V) is orders of magnitude less complicated than on my 1984 Oldsmobile Cutlass. That choking 307 V-8 must have had 27 miles of vacuum line under the hood. Try tracing a problem on THAT car.
I have found modern materials and build quality to be far superior to that of 10-20 years ago. Plastic door panels may not be as comfortable as soft velour, but they don't show wear/rub spots after 100k miles either. Both of our vehicles have 100k miles, give or take 10k miles on either side, and neither one looks any more aged than the day it left the factory.
I have found modern electronics to be far easier to diagnose than older stuff. That '84 Cutlass had a very rudimentary computer-controlled carburetor, where the mixture control solenoid was controlled by the computer, but that was it. It still had vacuum choke pull-offs and vacuum-modulated secondary butterflies, and a vacuum-controlled cruise control module. The miles of vacuum lines on that engine were enough for any mechanic to go grey or bald from constant hair-pulling!
I'm not arguing that modern cars are more simple than those of 20 years ago. But I do believe that they're built better; and that their systems are more durable and easier to repair.
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I agree with antique. Cars from the mid 80s-early 90s were some of the best. I always loved the 80s era Camaros and Trans Ams. The Buick Regals (GN,GNX,and T-Type) are still one of my fave cars. The Nissan Z31 Turbo is also one of my all time fave cars. The Olds 88,98,and Tornado also. The Bonneville SSE was an awesome car too.
Something that always fails to amuse me is the sheer number of cane-shaking luddites on here. Always reminiscing about the good ol days back when cars were unsafe, unreliable, and had no power. Take off the rose colored glasses for a minute.
Cars in the 80so and 90s weren't particularly well made or reliable. The 80s in particular was still in the "it's hit 100k and completely worn out" time period. They also were severely underpowered in general, and were in general unsafe when it comes to crashes. Modern cars are incredibly safe with much stronger frames, airbags, abs, etc. But even just looking at chassis improvements, you have an order of magnitude difference. But some people don't care about that. They don't care about fuel economy or emissions. They only want to gripe that cars were a lot better with carburetor and cap and rotor distributors. Cars of today, even with increasing complexity are in every single way, less repairability, better than cars in years past.
Cars in the 80so and 90s weren't particularly well made or reliable. The 80s in particular was still in the "it's hit 100k and completely worn out" time period. They also were severely underpowered in general, and were in general unsafe when it comes to crashes. Modern cars are incredibly safe with much stronger frames, airbags, abs, etc. But even just looking at chassis improvements, you have an order of magnitude difference. But some people don't care about that. They don't care about fuel economy or emissions. They only want to gripe that cars were a lot better with carburetor and cap and rotor distributors. Cars of today, even with increasing complexity are in every single way, less repairability, better than cars in years past.
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