Will someone please help me understand "energy Conserving" and Viscosity? I've asked several "oil" reps. and I've even been to the labs in Houston and nobody seems to be able to give me a straight answer. I'd like to know how reg. dino 10w30 meets/gets the energy con. label but no HM (even in 5w20) does?
Real Viscosity
- Thread starter Doc Holiday
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what is in non high mileage oils that makes them energy conserving? How is it that a 10w30 can get it but a 5w20 hm can't? There must be something other than just viscosity that plays a part in it.
It has to lower machine friction to some extent to be energy conserving I suppose.
Viscosity and internal fluid friction are closely related, but is not the same as the friction between mechanical parts. I guess two oils of same viscosity may be different in the "slippery" department, like when adding LS-additives to oil etc.
Someone please chip in.
Viscosity and internal fluid friction are closely related, but is not the same as the friction between mechanical parts. I guess two oils of same viscosity may be different in the "slippery" department, like when adding LS-additives to oil etc.
Someone please chip in.
for example, looking at the PDS of Valvoline dino 10w30 vs Maxlife 5w20 you'll see the 10w30 is "thicker" at 100C and at 40C and the 10w30 has a higher pour point too. So why can't the HM 5w20 earn the EC label??
Originally Posted By: lars11
It has to lower machine friction to some extent to be energy conserving I suppose.
Viscosity and internal fluid friction are closely related, but is not the same as the friction between mechanical parts. I guess two oils of same viscosity may be different in the "slippery" department, like when adding LS-additives to oil etc.
Someone please chip in.
LS add. is not to make it more slippery though. Also if it is based on "slippery" then would the full synthetic 5w30 Mobil 1 High mileage be less "slippery" than a dino 10w30? I'm not saying you are wrong...just wondering
It has to lower machine friction to some extent to be energy conserving I suppose.
Viscosity and internal fluid friction are closely related, but is not the same as the friction between mechanical parts. I guess two oils of same viscosity may be different in the "slippery" department, like when adding LS-additives to oil etc.
Someone please chip in.
LS add. is not to make it more slippery though. Also if it is based on "slippery" then would the full synthetic 5w30 Mobil 1 High mileage be less "slippery" than a dino 10w30? I'm not saying you are wrong...just wondering
"Energy conserving" is not a comparison of viscosity.
It is "Sequence VID Fuel Economy" test spec for improvement compared to an standard oil of the same viscosity.
"Energy Conserving" has to pass the same standards as GF-5. API oils without "Energy Rating" or "GF-5" do not need to test for "Sequence VID Fuel Economy".
http://www.gf-5.com/uploads/File/API SN Discussion.pdf
http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas-o...lity_marks.aspx
It is "Sequence VID Fuel Economy" test spec for improvement compared to an standard oil of the same viscosity.
"Energy Conserving" has to pass the same standards as GF-5. API oils without "Energy Rating" or "GF-5" do not need to test for "Sequence VID Fuel Economy".
http://www.gf-5.com/uploads/File/API SN Discussion.pdf
http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas-o...lity_marks.aspx
IMO all 0w, 5w, 10w-20 or 30 NOT heavy duty will pass the test.
Originally Posted By: carwreck
"Energy conserving" is not a comparison of viscosity.
It is "Sequence VID Fuel Economy" test spec for improvement compared to an standard oil of the same viscosity.
"Energy Conserving" has to pass the same standards as GF-5. API oils without "Energy Rating" or "GF-5" do not need to test for "Sequence VID Fuel Economy".
http://www.gf-5.com/uploads/File/API SN Discussion.pdf
http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas-o...lity_marks.aspx
Maxlife meets GF-5 "Meets engine and emission system protection requirements of ILSAC GF-5"
"Energy conserving" is not a comparison of viscosity.
It is "Sequence VID Fuel Economy" test spec for improvement compared to an standard oil of the same viscosity.
"Energy Conserving" has to pass the same standards as GF-5. API oils without "Energy Rating" or "GF-5" do not need to test for "Sequence VID Fuel Economy".
http://www.gf-5.com/uploads/File/API SN Discussion.pdf
http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas-o...lity_marks.aspx
Maxlife meets GF-5 "Meets engine and emission system protection requirements of ILSAC GF-5"
I think that that a key component to remember is that the comparison is made to a standard WITHIN the same grade. So, even though an Xw20 may perform better than an Xw30 in the fuel efficiency test, the 20s and the 30s are never compared across grade. In other words, it is a within-grade standard.
I believe the tests are done hot.
So it would not matter if it was a 5-30 or 10-30.
HM oils ARE thicker in their range.
This makes sense of all of this to me.
So it would not matter if it was a 5-30 or 10-30.
HM oils ARE thicker in their range.
This makes sense of all of this to me.
Originally Posted By: GMorg
I think that that a key component to remember is that the comparison is made to a standard WITHIN the same grade. So, even though an Xw20 may perform better than an Xw30 in the fuel efficiency test, the 20s and the 30s are never compared across grade. In other words, it is a within-grade standard.
BINGO !!!!
I think that that a key component to remember is that the comparison is made to a standard WITHIN the same grade. So, even though an Xw20 may perform better than an Xw30 in the fuel efficiency test, the 20s and the 30s are never compared across grade. In other words, it is a within-grade standard.
BINGO !!!!
ILSAC has a fuel economy test as part of GF-4/GF-5 motor oil test sequence. It is optional for API SM/SN.
Quote:
Wiki Motor Oil
The International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) also has standards for motor oil. Introduced in 2004, GF-4[10] applies to SAE 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30 viscosity grade oils. In general, ILSAC works with API in creating the newest gasoline oil specification, with ILSAC adding an extra requirement of fuel economy testing to their specification. For GF-4, a Sequence VIB Fuel Economy Test (ASTM D6837) is required that is not required in API service category SM.
If the oil passes the Fuel Economy Test it can be labeled as "Energy Conserving". Most HM oils are blended to a higher (thicker) viscosity (to help reduce oil consumption and make a more robust oil) so they can't pass the Fuel Economy Test and aren’t labeled as such. The fuel economy test is specific to the grade of oil, so the 5W-20 test is a different standard than the 5W-30 or 10W-30. The 5W-20 has to beat the 5W-20 reference oil, the 5W-30 has to beat the 5W-30 reference oil and so on …
Quote:
Wiki Motor Oil
The International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) also has standards for motor oil. Introduced in 2004, GF-4[10] applies to SAE 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30 viscosity grade oils. In general, ILSAC works with API in creating the newest gasoline oil specification, with ILSAC adding an extra requirement of fuel economy testing to their specification. For GF-4, a Sequence VIB Fuel Economy Test (ASTM D6837) is required that is not required in API service category SM.
If the oil passes the Fuel Economy Test it can be labeled as "Energy Conserving". Most HM oils are blended to a higher (thicker) viscosity (to help reduce oil consumption and make a more robust oil) so they can't pass the Fuel Economy Test and aren’t labeled as such. The fuel economy test is specific to the grade of oil, so the 5W-20 test is a different standard than the 5W-30 or 10W-30. The 5W-20 has to beat the 5W-20 reference oil, the 5W-30 has to beat the 5W-30 reference oil and so on …
Also, excessive phosphorous would disqualify an oil from being labelled as energy conserving - such as an engine oil that had higher ZDDP than permitted by the current ILSAC category.
Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
ILSAC has a fuel economy test as part of GF-4/GF-5 motor oil test sequence. It is optional for API SM/SN.
Quote:
Wiki Motor Oil
The International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) also has standards for motor oil. Introduced in 2004, GF-4[10] applies to SAE 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30 viscosity grade oils. In general, ILSAC works with API in creating the newest gasoline oil specification, with ILSAC adding an extra requirement of fuel economy testing to their specification. For GF-4, a Sequence VIB Fuel Economy Test (ASTM D6837) is required that is not required in API service category SM.
If the oil passes the Fuel Economy Test it can be labeled as "Energy Conserving". Most HM oils are blended to a higher (thicker) viscosity (to help reduce oil consumption and make a more robust oil) so they can't pass the Fuel Economy Test and aren’t labeled as such. The fuel economy test is specific to the grade of oil, so the 5W-20 test is a different standard than the 5W-30 or 10W-30. The 5W-20 has to beat the 5W-20 reference oil, the 5W-30 has to beat the 5W-30 reference oil and so on …
So a HM 5w30 should give better MPG than a reg 10w30 EC oil.
ILSAC has a fuel economy test as part of GF-4/GF-5 motor oil test sequence. It is optional for API SM/SN.
Quote:
Wiki Motor Oil
The International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) also has standards for motor oil. Introduced in 2004, GF-4[10] applies to SAE 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30 viscosity grade oils. In general, ILSAC works with API in creating the newest gasoline oil specification, with ILSAC adding an extra requirement of fuel economy testing to their specification. For GF-4, a Sequence VIB Fuel Economy Test (ASTM D6837) is required that is not required in API service category SM.
If the oil passes the Fuel Economy Test it can be labeled as "Energy Conserving". Most HM oils are blended to a higher (thicker) viscosity (to help reduce oil consumption and make a more robust oil) so they can't pass the Fuel Economy Test and aren’t labeled as such. The fuel economy test is specific to the grade of oil, so the 5W-20 test is a different standard than the 5W-30 or 10W-30. The 5W-20 has to beat the 5W-20 reference oil, the 5W-30 has to beat the 5W-30 reference oil and so on …
So a HM 5w30 should give better MPG than a reg 10w30 EC oil.
Originally Posted By: Doc Holiday
Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
ILSAC has a fuel economy test as part of GF-4/GF-5 motor oil test sequence. It is optional for API SM/SN.
Quote:
Wiki Motor Oil
The International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) also has standards for motor oil. Introduced in 2004, GF-4[10] applies to SAE 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30 viscosity grade oils. In general, ILSAC works with API in creating the newest gasoline oil specification, with ILSAC adding an extra requirement of fuel economy testing to their specification. For GF-4, a Sequence VIB Fuel Economy Test (ASTM D6837) is required that is not required in API service category SM.
If the oil passes the Fuel Economy Test it can be labeled as "Energy Conserving". Most HM oils are blended to a higher (thicker) viscosity (to help reduce oil consumption and make a more robust oil) so they can't pass the Fuel Economy Test and aren’t labeled as such. The fuel economy test is specific to the grade of oil, so the 5W-20 test is a different standard than the 5W-30 or 10W-30. The 5W-20 has to beat the 5W-20 reference oil, the 5W-30 has to beat the 5W-30 reference oil and so on …
So a HM 5w30 should give better MPG than a reg 10w30 EC oil.
No reason to expect that. HM 30 vs EC30 would yield the same results regardless of the Xw value.
Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
ILSAC has a fuel economy test as part of GF-4/GF-5 motor oil test sequence. It is optional for API SM/SN.
Quote:
Wiki Motor Oil
The International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) also has standards for motor oil. Introduced in 2004, GF-4[10] applies to SAE 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30 viscosity grade oils. In general, ILSAC works with API in creating the newest gasoline oil specification, with ILSAC adding an extra requirement of fuel economy testing to their specification. For GF-4, a Sequence VIB Fuel Economy Test (ASTM D6837) is required that is not required in API service category SM.
If the oil passes the Fuel Economy Test it can be labeled as "Energy Conserving". Most HM oils are blended to a higher (thicker) viscosity (to help reduce oil consumption and make a more robust oil) so they can't pass the Fuel Economy Test and aren’t labeled as such. The fuel economy test is specific to the grade of oil, so the 5W-20 test is a different standard than the 5W-30 or 10W-30. The 5W-20 has to beat the 5W-20 reference oil, the 5W-30 has to beat the 5W-30 reference oil and so on …
So a HM 5w30 should give better MPG than a reg 10w30 EC oil.
No reason to expect that. HM 30 vs EC30 would yield the same results regardless of the Xw value.
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
No reason to expect that. HM 30 vs EC30 would yield the same results regardless of the Xw value.
Agreed, and some HM oils are resource conserving. I just checked the latest Mobil Super 2000 (Mobil's synthetic blend HM in Canada) on the shelves. It's certified SN/GF-5 with both the API donut and the Starburst.
No reason to expect that. HM 30 vs EC30 would yield the same results regardless of the Xw value.
Agreed, and some HM oils are resource conserving. I just checked the latest Mobil Super 2000 (Mobil's synthetic blend HM in Canada) on the shelves. It's certified SN/GF-5 with both the API donut and the Starburst.
Slight correction. I believe there is only one reference oil for the fuel economy test, but the different grades have to beat that one reference oil by different amounts. It's been a while since I looked at he API/ILSAC spec;s
http://www.inp.nsk.su/activity/preprints/files/2012_100.pdf
2.f Fuel Efficiency: Sequence VIB*, ASTM D 6837
SAE 0W-20 and 5W-20 viscosity grades:
2.3% FEI 1 minimum after 16 hours aging
2.0% FEI 2 minimum after 96 hours aging
SAE 0W-30 and 5W-30 viscosity grades:
1.8% FEI 1 minimum after 16 hours aging
1.5% FEI 2 minimum after 96 hours aging
SAE 10W-30 and all other viscosity grades not listed above:
1.1% FEI 1 minimum after 16 hours aging
0.8% FEI 2 minimum after 96 hours aging
*All FEI 1 and FEI 2 values determined relative to ASTM Reference Oil BC.
http://www.inp.nsk.su/activity/preprints/files/2012_100.pdf
2.f Fuel Efficiency: Sequence VIB*, ASTM D 6837
SAE 0W-20 and 5W-20 viscosity grades:
2.3% FEI 1 minimum after 16 hours aging
2.0% FEI 2 minimum after 96 hours aging
SAE 0W-30 and 5W-30 viscosity grades:
1.8% FEI 1 minimum after 16 hours aging
1.5% FEI 2 minimum after 96 hours aging
SAE 10W-30 and all other viscosity grades not listed above:
1.1% FEI 1 minimum after 16 hours aging
0.8% FEI 2 minimum after 96 hours aging
*All FEI 1 and FEI 2 values determined relative to ASTM Reference Oil BC.
Quote:
So a HM 5w30 should give better MPG than a reg 10w30 EC oil.
No way to tell. There isn't cross data references for those oils. From what I've read, fuel efficiency is closely related to HTHS, but there are other factors such as friction modifiers in play too.
When Ford went to 5W-20 oils (over the 30 grade) they stated that it would increase fuel economy 0.6%.
Quote:
ford media
Ford Motor Company began shipping 2001 model year vehicles to customers with a new grade of motor oil designed to increase fuel economy by an average of 0.6 percent across nearly all of the company's North American fleet of 4.5 million vehicles. The net effect of using the new SAE 5W-20 grade motor oil will help reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 190,000 metric tons a year, which is equivalent to taking nearly 23,100 cars and trucks off the road each year.
0.6% better gas mileage with 5w-20 -- over a 5W-30 … if you’re getting 25 mpg you’d now get 25.15 … ye ha
Most 30 grades are probably so close one could never really tell the difference so I'd use whatever suites your fancy.
So a HM 5w30 should give better MPG than a reg 10w30 EC oil.
No way to tell. There isn't cross data references for those oils. From what I've read, fuel efficiency is closely related to HTHS, but there are other factors such as friction modifiers in play too.
When Ford went to 5W-20 oils (over the 30 grade) they stated that it would increase fuel economy 0.6%.
Quote:
ford media
Ford Motor Company began shipping 2001 model year vehicles to customers with a new grade of motor oil designed to increase fuel economy by an average of 0.6 percent across nearly all of the company's North American fleet of 4.5 million vehicles. The net effect of using the new SAE 5W-20 grade motor oil will help reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 190,000 metric tons a year, which is equivalent to taking nearly 23,100 cars and trucks off the road each year.
0.6% better gas mileage with 5w-20 -- over a 5W-30 … if you’re getting 25 mpg you’d now get 25.15 … ye ha
Most 30 grades are probably so close one could never really tell the difference so I'd use whatever suites your fancy.
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