A Ford mechanic on Youtube talked about short OCI,s because of problems with sludge and he stated that some synthetics weren't really synthetic. He was into 5000-mile oil changes. I would be curious what synthetic oil is really synthetic oil and what isn't? Is it a real thing?
Real synthetic oil?
- Thread starter ron17571
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There is a synthetic group that isn't engineered and produced like a Group IV or Group V synthetic oil. It is called a Group III and is about as good in most aspects and possibly better in some as a true/real/engineered synthetic. For extreme high performance applications a group IV or V is still what you look for. Most applications don't require it.
Castrol got "hydrocracked" Group III approved as a "synthetic" back when it used to only refer to group IV or V. Still is only IV or V in Germany.
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Ford has pushed 5k changes since the beginning of time at the dealerships. Doesn't matter if they give you synblend or full synthetic.
Their stickers always put you on a 5k interval.
MC filters probably play into the decision. Some are great, others not.
Their stickers always put you on a 5k interval.
MC filters probably play into the decision. Some are great, others not.
FAKE synthetics as i call them came about years ago when the advertising whatever deemed castrols severely refined CRUDE oils LEGALLY synthetic!! BUT a lot depends on what you believe as true or marketing bull, YES i believe the group III "synthetics are very good + a great value BUT NOT as good as the costlier REAL synthetics, PAO is group IV + better + group V which is anything not included in lower groups. Esters are prolly the best + there are many + many are cost prohibitive + used in smaller amounts + sometimes just a little added to a weaker group III or even group II can help it meet a spec. todays i believe ALL oils are blended to meet a spec + are blended as cheeply as possible to get the quality the blender wants. of course its the finished oil with additives that the specs show, but in time lesser fake synthetics degrade faster depending on its base oils + quality of the additives used + ONLY the pros blending said oils really KNOW!!!
If it meets the specs for your application it doesn't matter what the base oil is.
For most it doesn't matter and that's the forum consensus, however for some it still does. Would RL sell a single drop of oil if it just had to meet approvals? Personally I prefer to have both - the required approvals along with high quality base stocks (and according add pack).
@benjy: Little hard to read, but I have to admit I agree with one exception. I feel certain there are some oils that are not blended to just meet certain specs and approvals. While group III base stocks seem sufficient to meet very most approvals, an appropriate blend of Group IV and V can procure to exceed even demanding approvals. That being said, despite being improved and still cheaper, Group III hasn't displaced Group IV entirely, since PAO has still its merits. While very most (but not all) 0W-30/5W-30 VW 504 00 are majority Group III, when thinner oils like 0W-20 VW 508 00 arose many of them had and still have significant Group IV/PAO content (again), probably because for thinner oil it's harder to meet certain requirements e.g. for Noack. Both Noack and pourpoint are indicators for group IV & V content btw, however M1 ESP 5W-30 (just like its predecessor M1 ESP Formula) proved it can touch PAO territory with majority group III. However even M1 ESP 5W-30 uses some group IV and V (AN).
@benjy: Little hard to read, but I have to admit I agree with one exception. I feel certain there are some oils that are not blended to just meet certain specs and approvals. While group III base stocks seem sufficient to meet very most approvals, an appropriate blend of Group IV and V can procure to exceed even demanding approvals. That being said, despite being improved and still cheaper, Group III hasn't displaced Group IV entirely, since PAO has still its merits. While very most (but not all) 0W-30/5W-30 VW 504 00 are majority Group III, when thinner oils like 0W-20 VW 508 00 arose many of them had and still have significant Group IV/PAO content (again), probably because for thinner oil it's harder to meet certain requirements e.g. for Noack. Both Noack and pourpoint are indicators for group IV & V content btw, however M1 ESP 5W-30 (just like its predecessor M1 ESP Formula) proved it can touch PAO territory with majority group III. However even M1 ESP 5W-30 uses some group IV and V (AN).
Good ole Youtube... the pinnacle of factual information. If a random person on Youtube says the spawn of a donkey and giraffe is a batfish, it must be true.
/sarcasm
What he's referring to is the transition to group III synthetics away from group IV which is actually a better move. In the area that 98% of daily commuter engines operate, group III will provide better additive response and solubility without having to blend in group V esters or naphthalenes. They are also easier on elastomer seals. This on top of group III being ~6x cheaper than group IV.
People who are upset about this either are stuck in the past or are just blindly cheering on something they don't fully understand. Some of the highest demanding engines for oil (NASCAR) use a 0w-16/20 oil that's majority group III, and they run at 280*F sump temps and >350*F bearing temps. They actually show less wear with group III than IV. Let that sink in for a minute.
/sarcasm
What he's referring to is the transition to group III synthetics away from group IV which is actually a better move. In the area that 98% of daily commuter engines operate, group III will provide better additive response and solubility without having to blend in group V esters or naphthalenes. They are also easier on elastomer seals. This on top of group III being ~6x cheaper than group IV.
People who are upset about this either are stuck in the past or are just blindly cheering on something they don't fully understand. Some of the highest demanding engines for oil (NASCAR) use a 0w-16/20 oil that's majority group III, and they run at 280*F sump temps and >350*F bearing temps. They actually show less wear with group III than IV. Let that sink in for a minute.
I've seen you make these claims before about the oil NASCAR teams are using and you may be correct. I remember watching a television show about qualifying and racing at Daytona and the differing oil used for each and how secretive they were about what they were using. If they are all using SuperTech why the mystery?
This (GREAT) answer makes 75% (or more) topics disappear on here......
If that's the only true answer this forum will be obsolete.
I don't believe that Group III is equal or even better myth. It's just wishful thinking, regardless how often it's repeated. NASCAR doesn't even bother me. Additive response? Blend the appropriate amount of POE and/or AN into PAO and this is a non issue. Of course that's more expensive, however it's likely better too. The higher you refine crude oil > Group III, the more you shift aniline point towards PAO and you'll inevitably get same poor additive response as (pure) PAO. But who does use pure PAO? Nobody does, it's blended with Group II and or V for this reason, and I have no doubt this has been discussed on this forum a thousand times. Group III is cheaper, that's about it, nothing else.
It's sad to see someone denigrate other members and even getting likes for this. It's fine to disagree, though that answer could surely have been given in an unemotional manner.
I don't believe that Group III is equal or even better myth. It's just wishful thinking, regardless how often it's repeated. NASCAR doesn't even bother me. Additive response? Blend the appropriate amount of POE and/or AN into PAO and this is a non issue. Of course that's more expensive, however it's likely better too. The higher you refine crude oil > Group III, the more you shift aniline point towards PAO and you'll inevitably get same poor additive response as (pure) PAO. But who does use pure PAO? Nobody does, it's blended with Group II and or V for this reason, and I have no doubt this has been discussed on this forum a thousand times. Group III is cheaper, that's about it, nothing else.
It's sad to see someone denigrate other members and even getting likes for this. It's fine to disagree, though that answer could surely have been given in an unemotional manner.
If you get better wear numbers from group III than IV, why would you use IV?
It's a far cry from Supertech. Group III is very broad.
There's a lot to that oil that I won't disclose, but note those engines wouldn't survive 500 miles around Daytona on Supertech.
It's a far cry from Supertech. Group III is very broad.
There's a lot to that oil that I won't disclose, but note those engines wouldn't survive 500 miles around Daytona on Supertech.
Oil made from natural gas - synthetic enough. 
Nothing wrong with 5000 mile oil changes. Especially on a sludge prone engine or any
turbo or supercharged engine.
For the average North American driver, Group 111 synthetic is fine. High output/race engines are in
a world of their own.
My 2¢
turbo or supercharged engine.
For the average North American driver, Group 111 synthetic is fine. High output/race engines are in
a world of their own.
My 2¢
Not what you can buy from your local AutoZone though.
I have used true synthetics in demanding applications with good results . It depends on how much you enjoy hot stuck rings and their concomitant power loss and damage vs. proper cylinder balance. The real bad actor had been the VM load in severe multigrades like 5W30. The VM chemistry have improved over the past could decade where they are not as problematic.
Still I have recollection of stunning and consistent running engine with a well formulated true synthetic.
Nascar is not applicable to passenger car use.
Odd comment, considering that when you look at some Mobil racing oils what is exposed as general formulation
Here is the M1R 0W30 SDS dated July 2020 :
Applications
Mobil 1 Racing oils are recommended by ExxonMobil for a wide range of race engine applications. Note: Mobil 1 Racing oils are not recommended for street use.
• Mobil 1 Racing oils are recommended by ExxonMobil for a wide range of race engine applications including highly loaded flat tappet designs such as NASCAR Cup engines
Hazardous Substance(s) or Complex Substance(s) required for disclosure
Name CAS# , Concentration* , GHS Hazard Codes
1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED 68037-01-4 70 - < 80% H304
2-PENTANOL, 4-METHYL-, HYDROGEN PHOSPHORODITHIOATE, ZINC SALT
2215-35-2 1 - < 2.5% H303, H315, H318, H401, H411
ORGANO MOLY-SULFUR COMPLEX CONFIDENTIAL 1 - < 5% H315, H317, H402, H412
PHOSPHORODITHIOIC ACID, MIXED 0,0 BIS (1,3-DIMETHYLBUTYL AND ISO-PR)ESTERS, ZINC SALTS
84605-29-8 0.1 - < 1% H303, H315, H318, H401,H411
ZINC BIS(O,O-DIISOOCTYL) BIS(DITHIOPHOSPHATE) 28629-66-5 0.1 - < 1% H315, H318, H401, H411
* All concentrations are percent by weight unless material is a gas. Gas concentrations are in percent by volume.
Toyota hybrids call for 0W-16, and it is pretty common these days at the local Autozone and Walmart.
Very few cars use M1 anymore.
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