I spent some spare time reading http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilbasics/ppframe.htm repeatedly. Now I have a truckload of questions ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
"The base oil must have the ability to overcome its natural tendency to degrade, form sludge and deposits and turn acidic when exposed to oxygen,
heat, light, and chemical reagents during service"
Does PAO / esters not have a profound advantage in this regard?
"The base oil chosen must also have the ability to dissolve and disperse deposit precursors and degradation products" Huh?
"How are base oils classified: API groups:
Traditional base oils are classified as either:
Parafinic, Naphthenic, aromatic, and synthetic.
These classifications refer to the molecular structure of the base oil.
These classifications do not mean or imply one Group is better than another.
API Group 1 base oils are paraffinic in nature
...their chemical structure contains 90% or less paraffinic molecular structures...
API Group II base oils are paraffinic in nature...API Group III base oils are
paraffinic in nature. Group IV is used to describe all PAO's, Group V describes all others that are not I, II, III or IV. This Goup includes synthetics such as diesters, polyol esters..."
Are not oils such as RedLine in particular, but also perhaps Royal Purple, Amsoil, and others, made with both PAO's and esters?
What oils are napthenic or aromatic in nature?
Is solvent extraction, de-waxing, or hydrogen refining used or needed on Group IV's or V's?
What exactly is a raffinate?
How can a refinery expose oil to 800 degrees and 3000 PSI and then sell it for possibly under $1 a quart??
Hydrotreating seems a bit like making the oil "better" and closer to a PAO.
Or is that misguided on my part? And if the process increases paraffinic content, what is the paraffinic and sulfur content of PAO based oils?
What is a "crude oil *slate*"
"Aromatic and naphthenic rings are opened up" What does that mean and why is it important? Why is saturation with hydrogen beneficial?
"Hydrocracking can remove all of the sulfur and nitrogen and polar compounds present in the base oil" Isn't polarity a GOOD thing? If sulfur
is almost totally removed, where does it come from when it shows up in UOAs? Gas / Diesel or byproduct of combustion?
"The careful selection of the proper base oil remains the key to the formulation of a quality finished product" What's the difference between
a base oil and a feedstock? And what is the base oil for PAO / ester-based oil?
"Hydrocracked base oils - Advantages: Very good to excellant oxidation stability..."
Compared to what?
"Some hydrocracked base oils are pure enough to be used in cosmetics, pharmaceuticals and food grade oils" Are any of them edible?
"Lube oil base stocks may be manufactured from inferior (non-lube) crudes"
How? Or is that sort of like making diamonds from peanuts?
"Uninhibited hydrocracked base oils will darken and form sludge when exposed to air and light"
By uninhibited, does that refer to that addidives limit the damage done by air and light? How does air and light deteriorate an oil? Isn't oil
exposed to plenty of air in a crankcase?
"Hydrocracked base oils due to lack of aromatic compounds..."
Why do they lack aromatic compounds?
"The highest viscosity grade available from the various producers of hydrocracked base oils is equivelant to an ISO 100 or an SAE 30 grade"
Is ISO 100 equal to an SAE 30?
What about a 20 W 50? That is not hydrocracked?
Or it gets mixed with Group I's or have VI improvers?
"Highly aromatic by-products suitable for use in carbon black or rubber extender oil manufacture are not produced"
What is carbon black? What is rubber extender oil?
"the term PAO was first used by Gulf in the 1950's to describe synthetic fluids produced from saturated olefin oligomers"
What were they like in the 50's?
What is it saturatd with? What is an olefin and what is an oligomer?
If the first use was in the 50's how is it that Standard Oil attempted to commercialize it in 1929?
"PAO's are commercially produced by..." and no mention of RedLine, Amsoil, NEO, Royal Purple, etc. Why is that?
Pour points of -65 C? I hadn't quite heard of pour points that cold.
"Non-toxic. PAO's are pure enough to be used in cosmetics, pharmaceuticals and food grade oils"
Could you consume RedLine right out of the bottle?
Very good miscibility with petroleum base oils and esters.
Is miscibility the same as mixability?
"The higher viscosity grades from 100cSt to 3000 cSt have good low temperature flow characteristics. Pour points from 16 F / -9 C to -22F / -30 C"
What about the earlier mention of -65 C? Was that for X-w-30? Is this saying that a PAO 90-weight will flow at 16 F? And that a PAO 30-weight will flow at -22 F? That's pretty good!
Why would PAO's have only "Moderate to Poor biodegradability"?
"Are Hydrocracked base oils synthetic?" -Not even going there.
"Group 3 base oils that use slack wax as a feedstock or the Isodewaxing process come
close to performance to that of PAO's in key areas..."
That's nice, but my PAO fetish will live on. What is slack wax? What (again) is a feedstock?
"The highest viscosity grade that Group III base oils are available in are equivelant to
...a SAE 30 grade... Is this still the case? I get the impression that this was written some time ago.
So (as above) a 20-W50 cannot be Group III? That's news to me.
I'll be re-visting this matter in an effort to better understand.
My system is in the shop, I'm not posting this from my home system, so things like checking the BITOG forum will be dicey a while.
Thank you all.
Rob
"The base oil must have the ability to overcome its natural tendency to degrade, form sludge and deposits and turn acidic when exposed to oxygen,
heat, light, and chemical reagents during service"
Does PAO / esters not have a profound advantage in this regard?
"The base oil chosen must also have the ability to dissolve and disperse deposit precursors and degradation products" Huh?
"How are base oils classified: API groups:
Traditional base oils are classified as either:
Parafinic, Naphthenic, aromatic, and synthetic.
These classifications refer to the molecular structure of the base oil.
These classifications do not mean or imply one Group is better than another.
API Group 1 base oils are paraffinic in nature
...their chemical structure contains 90% or less paraffinic molecular structures...
API Group II base oils are paraffinic in nature...API Group III base oils are
paraffinic in nature. Group IV is used to describe all PAO's, Group V describes all others that are not I, II, III or IV. This Goup includes synthetics such as diesters, polyol esters..."
Are not oils such as RedLine in particular, but also perhaps Royal Purple, Amsoil, and others, made with both PAO's and esters?
What oils are napthenic or aromatic in nature?
Is solvent extraction, de-waxing, or hydrogen refining used or needed on Group IV's or V's?
What exactly is a raffinate?
How can a refinery expose oil to 800 degrees and 3000 PSI and then sell it for possibly under $1 a quart??
Hydrotreating seems a bit like making the oil "better" and closer to a PAO.
Or is that misguided on my part? And if the process increases paraffinic content, what is the paraffinic and sulfur content of PAO based oils?
What is a "crude oil *slate*"
"Aromatic and naphthenic rings are opened up" What does that mean and why is it important? Why is saturation with hydrogen beneficial?
"Hydrocracking can remove all of the sulfur and nitrogen and polar compounds present in the base oil" Isn't polarity a GOOD thing? If sulfur
is almost totally removed, where does it come from when it shows up in UOAs? Gas / Diesel or byproduct of combustion?
"The careful selection of the proper base oil remains the key to the formulation of a quality finished product" What's the difference between
a base oil and a feedstock? And what is the base oil for PAO / ester-based oil?
"Hydrocracked base oils - Advantages: Very good to excellant oxidation stability..."
Compared to what?
"Some hydrocracked base oils are pure enough to be used in cosmetics, pharmaceuticals and food grade oils" Are any of them edible?
"Lube oil base stocks may be manufactured from inferior (non-lube) crudes"
How? Or is that sort of like making diamonds from peanuts?
"Uninhibited hydrocracked base oils will darken and form sludge when exposed to air and light"
By uninhibited, does that refer to that addidives limit the damage done by air and light? How does air and light deteriorate an oil? Isn't oil
exposed to plenty of air in a crankcase?
"Hydrocracked base oils due to lack of aromatic compounds..."
Why do they lack aromatic compounds?
"The highest viscosity grade available from the various producers of hydrocracked base oils is equivelant to an ISO 100 or an SAE 30 grade"
Is ISO 100 equal to an SAE 30?
What about a 20 W 50? That is not hydrocracked?
Or it gets mixed with Group I's or have VI improvers?
"Highly aromatic by-products suitable for use in carbon black or rubber extender oil manufacture are not produced"
What is carbon black? What is rubber extender oil?
"the term PAO was first used by Gulf in the 1950's to describe synthetic fluids produced from saturated olefin oligomers"
What were they like in the 50's?
What is it saturatd with? What is an olefin and what is an oligomer?
If the first use was in the 50's how is it that Standard Oil attempted to commercialize it in 1929?
"PAO's are commercially produced by..." and no mention of RedLine, Amsoil, NEO, Royal Purple, etc. Why is that?
Pour points of -65 C? I hadn't quite heard of pour points that cold.
"Non-toxic. PAO's are pure enough to be used in cosmetics, pharmaceuticals and food grade oils"
Could you consume RedLine right out of the bottle?
Very good miscibility with petroleum base oils and esters.
Is miscibility the same as mixability?
"The higher viscosity grades from 100cSt to 3000 cSt have good low temperature flow characteristics. Pour points from 16 F / -9 C to -22F / -30 C"
What about the earlier mention of -65 C? Was that for X-w-30? Is this saying that a PAO 90-weight will flow at 16 F? And that a PAO 30-weight will flow at -22 F? That's pretty good!
Why would PAO's have only "Moderate to Poor biodegradability"?
"Are Hydrocracked base oils synthetic?" -Not even going there.
"Group 3 base oils that use slack wax as a feedstock or the Isodewaxing process come
close to performance to that of PAO's in key areas..."
That's nice, but my PAO fetish will live on. What is slack wax? What (again) is a feedstock?
"The highest viscosity grade that Group III base oils are available in are equivelant to
...a SAE 30 grade... Is this still the case? I get the impression that this was written some time ago.
So (as above) a 20-W50 cannot be Group III? That's news to me.
I'll be re-visting this matter in an effort to better understand.
My system is in the shop, I'm not posting this from my home system, so things like checking the BITOG forum will be dicey a while.
Thank you all.
Rob