Rare Mountain Lion Killed in KY

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: MNgopher
I am chuckling at certain suggestions that those of us questioning the shoot first response aren't thinking rationally and are being ruled by emotions.

We have a cabin in the northwoods of Minnesota. We routinely have wildlife visitors, including wolves and bear. I also have two young children. Do I worry about their overall safety with those facts in mind? No. Instead, I use it as an opportunity to teach my kids about wildlife, and how to respect and live with it.

I respect the fact that it had been 150 years since supposedly seeing one. I question whether the lion was actually threatening anybody, and if left alone would have moved on. Note that it had been chased into two different trees by barking dogs. Note also the original article pointed out the actual statistics. Your odds of being killed by a bee sting or being hit by lightning are higher.


Good post....but likely it will be lost on those that consider the vaunted "children" as somehow in GRAVE danger....so it must be killed.

Many folks today want the natural world to be antiseptic and void of any danger...no matter how minuscule the chance of injury are. All they need to do is mention "the children" and the emotions come forth. Good grief.

All these posts and NOT ONE legitimate reason for killing that cougar. Nothing but "what if's".

 

[Drew99GT]

The funny thing about nature is, if you wipe out one species, another will take it's place. Kill all the cougars, the deer population goes up, wolves and coyotes have more food. It's a simple metaphor, but it's true. You kill off one predator, another will take it's place. You can't make nature permanently safe.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
A Mountain Lion in that type of human inhabited area is very dangerous. Mountain Lions will attack people and especially kids no question. Why people would make lite of that is beyond me? They are one of the most dangerous predators in North America. Apparently this farm was not far away from a city/town as well( Paris, KY population 9700+ ). That animal clearly doesn't have the fear of humans it should and if not dealt with will become even more dangerous as it loses all fear.

As the man from Texas says once any predator becomes comfortable around humans it will keep coming back and even more so with a predator that has a defined range like a Mountain Lion. While I agree it seems a shame to have shot it if it had not done any damage yet I also see the reason for it as far as preventing future harm.

We aren't talking a Mountain Lion on some remote farm in the wilderness or up a tree 200 miles from any humans. It appears the animal was not far from a city/town with close to 10,000 people which means a lot kids. Just not good people. That animal had no place where it was and, yes, children at risk is a very real danger! Just this past September a Mountain Lion grabbed a 6 year old boy in California who was hiking with his parents. Right in broad daylight.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/07/mountain-lion-attack-cupertino-california_n_5781858.html

Do you wait for a predator in an area with kids to actually hurt/kill one before you deal with it? Not me. I wager some of you saying that concern is overblown would be the 1st ones hollering and blaming officials if it was your kid who was injured, or worse, if they knew a dangerous predator was around and didn't deal with it.

As far as relocating the animal. I agree that would be the best solution( if it works - the guy from TX says they return which I believe could happen - although others say it works so? ). However, I think you all are missing some key issues with that even if it is a viable solution. One is it was getting late/dark and the animal very easily could have got away in the dark plus a human should not be messing with a Mountain Lion in the dark. That human is going to get hurt if they try!.

The other issue I think people aren't taking into consideration, which they should, is if there hasn't been a sighting of a Mountain Lion in the area( or even state )for 150 years do you really think the Wildlife Officers have the equipment and training to actually trap one and relocate it? Be serious folks. You need the proper equipment and training to not only safely relocate the Mountain Lion but to keep the people doing it safe. I feel it is unreasonable for people to think this was a solution given the circumstances. That sounds like emotions talking and not reason and common sense to me.

It is truly sad that the animal was shot but I am not going to crucify people for doing so nor expect them to be able to do something they aren't equipped for or trained for.

Just my

In some people's minds, predator wildlife is more important than the life of a child.

 

[kkreit01]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: kkreit01
I too have children. I fear (far) more than them being taken by cancer, insect bites, human predators, car accident vs. a mountain lion.


Which is a reasonable way to think seeing as a Mountain Lion would be very rare around you. However, if you saw one on your property, or one was seen in your area/town, would you feel the same after? When your kids were outside would you have any concern? I think we know the answer.


Somewhat rare, but not impossible. There have been many sitings around us (and in northern MO):

http://www.cougarfund.org/news/news/?state=kansas

We've had many coyotes outside our fence. There have also been many bobcat sitings close. No, not the same predator, but still a predator. I welcome them, because they'll help control the rabbit population.

I always have concern with my kids outside. They go in our backyard (locked fence) alone, but still don't ride up and down the street on their bikes alone. That's because of the human trash -- and we live in a good neighborhood. Yes, I would do everything I can to protect them. That would include shooting anything that moves. There weren't many details in the article, but it didn't appear that anyone or any livestock was in immediate danger.

 

[MNgopher]

Just shaking my head at some of the responses in this thread.

It isn't about whether the life of a mountain lion is more important than anything else. It is about assessing levels of risk and reacting appropriately.

In this case, a mountain lion was treed by dogs, twice. No mention of an immediate threat to humans - adult or child. The reality is after being treed by dogs twice (wait, I thought these were meat eaters that fear nothing?) that lion would have wanted nothing more than to get away from where it was. Nothing more.

I've had a wolf on the ground with me while hunting at 20 yards. Should I have shot it? It wasn't threatening me. Took one look at me and bolted.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: CT8
Mountain lions are bad news years ago when people had common sense they hunted mountain lions and wolves almost out of existence for a reason.




Right.


Let's wipe out a population of native wildlife because it doesn't fit in with our ideals or what we want.
Never mind that nature has seen fit to keep it around for millions of years,earning it's right to live on this planet,just like we have the right to life.

"You can tell much about a people based on how they treat animals"

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: MNgopher
Just shaking my head at some of the responses in this thread.

It isn't about whether the life of a mountain lion is more important than anything else. It is about assessing levels of risk and reacting appropriately.

In this case, a mountain lion was treed by dogs, twice. No mention of an immediate threat to humans - adult or child. The reality is after being treed by dogs twice (wait, I thought these were meat eaters that fear nothing?) that lion would have wanted nothing more than to get away from where it was. Nothing more.

I've had a wolf on the ground with me while hunting at 20 yards. Should I have shot it? It wasn't threatening me. Took one look at me and bolted.


I shake my head at the response of those who seem to have no concern over the threat a Mountain Lion posses. I guess I am an evil monster because such an animal in and around human population areas to me is a concern. That type of animal belongs up in the mountains or deep in the woods. They don't belong up a tree in someone's farm next to a populated city/town of almost 10,000. Once the cat came that close it showed it doesn't have the human fear it should and that is a concern.

You are right, the animal was treed twice by the dogs. You can look at it in the way you present it that it is thus not a threat because it didn't turn on them. You can also look at it that the animal, despite being chased by dogs( which it should be able to outrun ), wouldn't leave the area.

I love how people against the shooting of the animal, who keep saying they are no threat, ignore the link I gave where a 6 year old boy was attacked in Sept 2014 in CA while hiking with his parents in broad daylight. The Mountain Lion took the boy off a hiking path for god sake. Luckily the boy was not killed.

I have seen NO ONE advocate going out into the wilderness and killing every Mountain Lion found( despite some here implying that is what we want ). I have seen people say that a predator found so close to human population areas, where they don't belong( by their own very nature ), are dangerous and have to be dealt with because they do not have the fear of humans as they should. I have also seen no one say they are glad the animal was shot either. I didn't that is for sure. I feel bad it was shot BUT it had no business where it was. Too dangerous. I will fault no one for worrying that letting it go might lead to a future encounter where someone does get hurt. That is not unreasonable to me. The cat was already where it shouldn't be( again by it's own nature )so who is to say it wouldn't return if let go and then hurt someone.

I will also repeat that relocating it involves a lot of equipment and training that I question if the state's Wildlife department had. If the animal hasn't been present in the state for 150 years chances are they were not prepared to handle it. They might have been able to knock it out but it might have died in captivity from stress( where I wager many of you would be on them for that too ). The capture, holding, and then transportation of to relocate a Mountain Lion is NOT the same as it would be for a deer, feral hog( actually a dangerous animal but not like a predator ), or other non predatory animals. This is a very dangerous animal and it has to be done properly so the animal and the humans handling it are not hurt.

I will also remind people it was late in the day and almost dark. Something had to be done before it got dark. Once dark that cat could easily escape and/or become 10X's the threat to the humans around it. If they felt it was a threat that is not an acceptable solution.

I truly am sorry the animal was shot. I wish it could have been safely moved somewhere else. I am not for the killing of animals just to kill. In THIS incident however I see no wrong done. Just a bad situation with a sad outcome.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

"You can tell much about a people based on how they treat animals"


You are right and if you saw how I treated my dogs you would know I treat animals very well and that I am not a kill monger as some are making me out to be. When I hunt and take an animal's life I respect that act and make sure the animal is used fully. I don't high five people and carry on like an idiot. Taking a life, even that of an animal, is not something you jump around celebrating. You honor the life you took.

With that said, if an animal posses a danger to humans and taking it's life is what has to be done so be it. Thinking that way does not make me an animal abuser, someone who wants to kill every animal I see, or a bad person the way so many in this thread make me and others out to be.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: andrewg


All these posts and NOT ONE legitimate reason for killing that cougar. Nothing but "what if's".


I am sorry but what an unbelievably arrogant comment that is. Since when do you get to decide what is legitimate and what isn't in this life? Are you God? There have been very legitimate reasons given. You just don't agree with them is all.

Wow!

 

[MNgopher]

Thought better of it and rather than have a nonstop disagreement, I'll end my participation here.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
Just shaking my head at some of the responses in this thread.

It isn't about whether the life of a mountain lion is more important than anything else. It is about assessing levels of risk and reacting appropriately.

In this case, a mountain lion was treed by dogs, twice. No mention of an immediate threat to humans - adult or child. The reality is after being treed by dogs twice (wait, I thought these were meat eaters that fear nothing?) that lion would have wanted nothing more than to get away from where it was. Nothing more.

I've had a wolf on the ground with me while hunting at 20 yards. Should I have shot it? It wasn't threatening me. Took one look at me and bolted.


I shake my head at the response of those who seem to have no concern over the threat a Mountain Lion posses. I guess I am an evil monster because such an animal in and around human population areas to me is a concern. That type of animal belongs up in the mountains or deep in the woods. They don't belong up a tree in someone's farm next to a populated city/town of almost 10,000. Once the cat came that close it showed it doesn't have the human fear it should and that is a concern.

You are right, the animal was treed twice by the dogs. You can look at it in the way you present it that it is thus not a threat because it didn't turn on them. You can also look at it that the animal, despite being chased by dogs( which it should be able to outrun ), wouldn't leave the area.

I love how people against the shooting of the animal, who keep saying they are no threat, ignore the link I gave where a 6 year old boy was attacked in Sept 2014 in CA while hiking with his parents in broad daylight. The Mountain Lion took the boy off a hiking path for god sake. Luckily the boy was not killed.

I have seen NO ONE advocate going out into the wilderness and killing every Mountain Lion found( despite some here implying that is what we want ). I have seen people say that a predator found so close to human population areas, where they don't belong( by their own very nature ), are dangerous and have to be dealt with because they do not have the fear of humans as they should. I have also seen no one say they are glad the animal was shot either. I didn't that is for sure. I feel bad it was shot BUT it had no business where it was. Too dangerous. I will fault no one for worrying that letting it go might lead to a future encounter where someone does get hurt. That is not unreasonable to me. The cat was already where it shouldn't be( again by it's own nature )so who is to say it wouldn't return if let go and then hurt someone.

I will also repeat that relocating it involves a lot of equipment and training that I question if the state's Wildlife department had. If the animal hasn't been present in the state for 150 years chances are they were not prepared to handle it. They might have been able to knock it out but it might have died in captivity from stress( where I wager many of you would be on them for that too ). The capture, holding, and then transportation of to relocate a Mountain Lion is NOT the same as it would be for a deer, feral hog( actually a dangerous animal but not like a predator ), or other non predatory animals. This is a very dangerous animal and it has to be done properly so the animal and the humans handling it are not hurt.

I will also remind people it was late in the day and almost dark. Something had to be done before it got dark. Once dark that cat could easily escape and/or become 10X's the threat to the humans around it. If they felt it was a threat that is not an acceptable solution.

I truly am sorry the animal was shot. I wish it could have been safely moved somewhere else. I am not for the killing of animals just to kill. In THIS incident however I see no wrong done. Just a bad situation with a sad outcome.


By your logic you should advocate the offing of yourself. You have a far greater capability and probability of killing people compared to a mountain lion. Human beings kill far more Human beings than mountain lions in virtually all circumstances. Around here there are mountain lions, bobcats, and coyotes. They are common around here yet the average person that lives in Maricopa does not realize they are around. Because the named alpha predators have a very healthy sense of fear of humans.

This cougar was scared up two separate trees by domesticated dogs. This cat was hardly a threat.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: andrewg


All these posts and NOT ONE legitimate reason for killing that cougar. Nothing but "what if's".


I am sorry but what an unbelievably arrogant comment that is. Since when do you get to decide what is legitimate and what isn't in this life? Are you God? There have been very legitimate reasons given. You just don't agree with them is all.

Wow!

Arrogant? Really? By WHAT measure?

According to statistics from the last decade, there are an average of 5.6 reported cougar attacks in the United States and Canada each year. The chances of being struck by lightning they say, are greater than being attacked by a cougar.

So what are the chances of being struck by lightning? According to the National Lightning Safety Institute, about 1,000 people are struck by lightning in the United States each year, so with 280 million people in the country, the odds of being struck by lightning are 1 in 280,000.

Arrogance is killing an animal for NO good reason. Statistics and data bear this out.

The folks playing God are the ones that take an innocent life.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: andrewg


All these posts and NOT ONE legitimate reason for killing that cougar. Nothing but "what if's".


I am sorry but what an unbelievably arrogant comment that is. Since when do you get to decide what is legitimate and what isn't in this life? Are you God? There have been very legitimate reasons given. You just don't agree with them is all.

Wow!

Arrogant? Really? By WHAT measure?

According to statistics from the last decade, there are an average of 5.6 reported cougar attacks in the United States and Canada each year. The chances of being struck by lightning they say, are greater than being attacked by a cougar.

So what are the chances of being struck by lightning? According to the National Lightning Safety Institute, about 1,000 people are struck by lightning in the United States each year, so with 280 million people in the country, the odds of being struck by lightning are 1 in 280,000.

Arrogance is killing an animal for NO good reason. Statistics and data bear this out.

The folks playing God are the ones that take an innocent life.




You clearly are not being reasonable and are way overreacting to words myself and others have posted. Rather than continue to dignify your vitriol with responses I will just bow out.

Have a nice day.

 

[aa1986]

I see both sides of the argument, but to call someone arrogant and unreasonable and then accuse the other person of over-reacting and using vitriol is hypocrisy imo.

I saw nothing wrong with andrewg's reply. It was simply his opinion.

And to clarify, I have sympathy with both sides of the argument on this. I haven't looked into it enough to form a conclusion.

 

[Silverado12]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: CT8
Mountain lions are bad news years ago when people had common sense they hunted mountain lions and wolves almost out of existence for a reason.


Makes no sense. By your logic, you must be terrified every time you drive your car? Are you terrified to walk your neighborhood because of dogs (they kill MANY more humans than mountain lions)?


CT8 is absolutely right. There is one in Central WV right now, and those are bad news to dogs, livestock, adults, children, etc.

 

[Silverado12]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: andrewg


All these posts and NOT ONE legitimate reason for killing that cougar. Nothing but "what if's".


I am sorry but what an unbelievably arrogant comment that is. Since when do you get to decide what is legitimate and what isn't in this life? Are you God? There have been very legitimate reasons given. You just don't agree with them is all.

Wow!

Arrogant? Really? By WHAT measure?

According to statistics from the last decade, there are an average of 5.6 reported cougar attacks in the United States and Canada each year. The chances of being struck by lightning they say, are greater than being attacked by a cougar.

So what are the chances of being struck by lightning? According to the National Lightning Safety Institute, about 1,000 people are struck by lightning in the United States each year, so with 280 million people in the country, the odds of being struck by lightning are 1 in 280,000.

Arrogance is killing an animal for NO good reason. Statistics and data bear this out.

The folks playing God are the ones that take an innocent life.




That's fine until you or your family gets mauled or killed by the mountain lion. Again those things are bad news.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: andrewg


All these posts and NOT ONE legitimate reason for killing that cougar. Nothing but "what if's".


I am sorry but what an unbelievably arrogant comment that is. Since when do you get to decide what is legitimate and what isn't in this life? Are you God? There have been very legitimate reasons given. You just don't agree with them is all.

Wow!

Arrogant? Really? By WHAT measure?

According to statistics from the last decade, there are an average of 5.6 reported cougar attacks in the United States and Canada each year. The chances of being struck by lightning they say, are greater than being attacked by a cougar.

So what are the chances of being struck by lightning? According to the National Lightning Safety Institute, about 1,000 people are struck by lightning in the United States each year, so with 280 million people in the country, the odds of being struck by lightning are 1 in 280,000.

Arrogance is killing an animal for NO good reason. Statistics and data bear this out.

The folks playing God are the ones that take an innocent life.




That's fine until you or your family gets mauled or killed by the mountain lion. Again those things are bad news.


People who drive cars kills tens of thousands every year including children. There should be no cars. Cars are bad news.

 

[andrewg]

Doh!!! ^^^^ Good one!

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: aa1986
I see both sides of the argument, but to call someone arrogant and unreasonable and then accuse the other person of over-reacting and using vitriol is hypocrisy imo.

I saw nothing wrong with andrewg's reply. It was simply his opinion.

And to clarify, I have sympathy with both sides of the argument on this. I haven't looked into it enough to form a conclusion.


Yep...it was my opinion and no need for some to get too worked-up over it.

I certainly don't want any kids (or adults) to get harmed by a wild animal. But at the same time I think it just horrid to kill almost ANY animal for what it MIGHT do. The natural world is what it is....in a wild state it's a thing to marvel at...and have common sense toward it's dangers.......not KILL or DESTROY something out of fear.

Plenty of info available about cougars and how to react toward them. It's not that hard to educate kids (or adults) in the proper safety precautions.

I'll tell you what though....IF that cougar DID stalk and attack a human (as it would it's natural prey) then I could see a reason to dispatch it. But nothing in the story alluded to that.

 

[dave1251]

I believe we are in agreement on this one. Children have a greater probability of fatally taking a bath versus a mountain lion attack. The justification of killing a mountain loin is very weak. I guess children should not bathe.