R+T The EV is the car of the future, and it might always be

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
The only thing I have found dealers to be good for is slashing the price on old inventory so I could get a good deal on an exiting model. Other than that, completely useless. As I can only assume a manufacturer sales lot would do the same thing for me, the dealers can fall to the ground and die.



Accurate in my 40 plus years of motoring delight. I can only think of a very small number of dealers who worked to earn my business. Very few.

 

[fdcg27]

Based upon my current 5K of hybrid driving, it appears that either the motor is driving the car or the car is driving the motor, which in turn allows it to generate current.
Since generating current requires work, this has an effect similar to the engine braking you'd observe in driving any car relying entirely upon a combustion engine for motive power.
You can select regen braking using paddles on the steering column and max regen requires enough work that you can often slow the car from a decently high speed without touching the foot pedal at all. A long downgrade will add considerable indicated charge to the battery. Using the foot peddle also brings regen into play and judging by the charge indicator on the display I've selected, most of the braking effort appears to come from regen.
The brake pads should last about forever.
Is this a technically more reasonable explanation?

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted by SteveSRT8
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
The only thing I have found dealers to be good for is slashing the price on old inventory so I could get a good deal on an exiting model. Other than that, completely useless. As I can only assume a manufacturer sales lot would do the same thing for me, the dealers can fall to the ground and die.



Accurate in my 40 plus years of motoring delight. I can only think of a very small number of dealers who worked to earn my business. Very few.


I also have 40+ years of motoring delight and I've had mostly good experiences with dealers. As with anything else, you get what you ask for and a politely demanding buyer can often get a dealer to do a lot for him in the deal. If you know what you intend to buy and know what a good price is going in you can then bargain from a position of strength. Knowledge is power.
Of course, there are some dealers who won't play at all on selling price. One just identifies and avoids them while smiling at those driving around in cars bought from these places.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
I also have 40+ years of motoring delight and I've had mostly good experiences with dealers. As with anything else, you get what you ask for and a politely demanding buyer can often get a dealer to do a lot for him in the deal. If you know what you intend to buy and know what a good price is going in you can then bargain from a position of strength. Knowledge is power.
Of course, there are some dealers who won't play at all on selling price. One just identifies and avoids them while smiling at those driving around in cars bought from these places.



Both myself and Doublewasp agreed that selling cars is where a dealer can work for you. As an example, my latest 18 3500 extended Express was about 30k with tons of nifty options with a 9600 pound GVWR!

Servicing the vehicle has been where my concern lies, nothing to do with selling/buying.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Did you know the Tesla software (not all) is open source? Elon allows any car maker to copy and use, modify, whatever his programmer's work.
My understanding is the Auto Pilot software in on GitHub, more to come.
I have a GitHub account, now all I need is a car...

 

[Cujet]

I thought long and hard about purchasing a Chevy Volt. The tax break is/was very attractive. HOWEVER, I spent some time on the EV forums and guess what?

EV's may not be cheaper per mile with regard to energy costs.

In my location, electrical power ends up being 20-22 cents per KWH, after all the various charges. The base charge is 13.5c plus taxes, fuel charges, distribution fees, and so on. Plus it's a rising rate, the more you use, the more you pay.

A Volt takes 16.5KWH to charge, but due to charge and charger inefficiencies, the mean charge efficiency is only 83.8% efficient!

So your meter runs up exactly 20KWH to charge a Volt!! Or about $4 - $4.40

With real world mixed highway/ city EV range being 45 miles or less, that's 10+ cents per mile for EV power.

The Volt gets 37 MPG on the engine alone in mixed driving (with no charge) at normal speeds. For a local cost of 5.3 cents per mile (for gas)

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by Cujet
I thought long and hard about purchasing a Chevy Volt. The tax break is/was very attractive. HOWEVER, I spent some time on the EV forums and guess what?

EV's may not be cheaper per mile with regard to energy costs.

In my location, electrical power ends up being 20-22 cents per KWH, after all the various charges. The base charge is 13.5c plus taxes, fuel charges, distribution fees, and so on. Plus it's a rising rate, the more you use, the more you pay.

A Volt takes 16.5KWH to charge, but due to charge and charger inefficiencies, the mean charge efficiency is only 83.8% efficient!

So your meter runs up exactly 20KWH to charge a Volt!! Or about $4 - $4.40

With real world mixed highway/ city EV range being 45 miles or less, that's 10+ cents per mile for EV power.

The Volt gets 37 MPG on the engine alone in mixed driving (with no charge) at normal speeds. For a local cost of 5.3 cents per mile (for gas)


EVs, and hybrids for that matter, are not a good financial choice at this time. There are intangibles, like commuter lanes and parking priorities.
I was installing solar prior to buying an EV, so this will help. Also, many companies offer subsidized charging at work.
But as you point out, dollar for dollar, it does not make sense.
I imagine a Civic or Corolla, which may get 40 mpg (or whatever they get nowadays) is hard to beat for total cost of ownership.

 

[fdcg27]

Well, based upon what I paid for the car, the average price of fuel as well as what I saw in typical fuel economy with our '12 and what fuelly tells us about the typical current 1.5T, my Accord Hybrid will cover its price premium in less than three years of my use.
After that, I'll be ahead although I'd really need to factor in the opportunity cost of the marginal cost of buying the car.
I am surprised that the Volt offers such poor fuel economy outside of EV mode as well as how costly the EV mode is.
I don't think you'd see 40 mpg from either a Civic or a Corolla in typical daily use.
At the end of the day, we all buy what we want and then find some basis that allows us to justify the purchase.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
Well, based upon what I paid for the car, the average price of fuel as well as what I saw in typical fuel economy with our '12 and what fuelly tells us about the typical current 1.5T, my Accord Hybrid will cover its price premium in less than three years of my use.
After that, I'll be ahead although I'd really need to factor in the opportunity cost of the marginal cost of buying the car.
I am surprised that the Volt offers such poor fuel economy outside of EV mode as well as how costly the EV mode is.
I don't think you'd see 40 mpg from either a Civic or a Corolla in typical daily use.
At the end of the day, we all buy what we want and then find some basis that allows us to justify the purchase.

I love Accords. Really great cars in any configuration. Great choice.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
Well, based upon what I paid for the car, the average price of fuel as well as what I saw in typical fuel economy with our '12 and what fuelly tells us about the typical current 1.5T, my Accord Hybrid will cover its price premium in less than three years of my use.


I've rented the 1.5t Accord. Under my strict care, they get 30MPG in city/mixed being easy on it.
The Hybrid seems to be the way to maximize fuel economy and minimize overall fuel costs.

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk


EVs, and hybrids for that matter, are not a good financial choice at this time. [/quote]

I'm not sure on that one. Fuel costs are a major part of operational expenses. Clearly, even the best non hybrid midsized cars only get 30 in real world use. Since I keep cars a very long time, I suspect I'd see the savings on a hybrid.

However, I was quite surprised at the fact that the Volt costs MORE to operate on electricity than on gas. Sure, that's subject to local prices, and is a testament to it's efficient ICE design, but still. The prevailing "lie" is that the electric car costs $2 to "fill up". In fact, the cost to charge is higher than we have been led to believe and easily mirrors the cost of gasoline in many locations (per mile)

We can't compare the Tesla Model S, as it does not have a hybrid drive, and there are no plug in hybrid competitors.

What we do know is that EV cars (from the Leaf to the Model S) consume somewhere near 300-340 watts per mile. (don't forget those charging inefficiencies) meaning the meter runs up 400 W for every 340 W out of the battery.

 

[Rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Cujet
I thought long and hard about purchasing a Chevy Volt. The tax break is/was very attractive. HOWEVER, I spent some time on the EV forums and guess what?

EV's may not be cheaper per mile with regard to energy cost

A Volt takes 16.5KWH to charge, but due to charge and charger inefficiencies, the mean charge efficiency is only 83.8% efficient!

So your meter runs up exactly 20KWH to charge a Volt!! Or about $4 - $



Um, no your wrong

My 2013 Volt takes 12kwhr from the wall to fully charge with some variance at very cold temperatures.

My summer range on a charge is 50-70 miles
Winter range is 25-50 miles
On a charge

My fuel economy is 35-48mpg depending on temperature, conditions (freezing rain kills economy) and speed.

My work pays 3.8 cents a kwhr but I get free charging there
I pay 9.8 cents a kwhr at home.

YMMV but the Volt gives you the option to choose when you use gas and electricity

EV is Much more efficient in the city
gas more efficient in the cold or highway.

Using a small bit of common sense you can optimize your costs for your situation


Further if your paying 20 cents a kwhr your getting raped, I would recommend Solar.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Well, based upon what I paid for the car, the average price of fuel as well as what I saw in typical fuel economy with our '12 and what fuelly tells us about the typical current 1.5T, my Accord Hybrid will cover its price premium in less than three years of my use.


I've rented the 1.5t Accord. Under my strict care, they get 30MPG in city/mixed being easy on it.
The Hybrid seems to be the way to maximize fuel economy and minimize overall fuel costs.

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk


EVs, and hybrids for that matter, are not a good financial choice at this time.


I'm not sure on that one. Fuel costs are a major part of operational expenses. Clearly, even the best non hybrid midsized cars only get 30 in real world use. Since I keep cars a very long time, I suspect I'd see the savings on a hybrid.

However, I was quite surprised at the fact that the Volt costs MORE to operate on electricity than on gas. Sure, that's subject to local prices, and is a testament to it's efficient ICE design, but still. The prevailing "lie" is that the electric car costs $2 to "fill up". In fact, the cost to charge is higher than we have been led to believe and easily mirrors the cost of gasoline in many locations (per mile)

We can't compare the Tesla Model S, as it does not have a hybrid drive, and there are no plug in hybrid competitors.

What we do know is that EV cars (from the Leaf to the Model S) consume somewhere near 300-340 watts per mile. (don't forget those charging inefficiencies) meaning the meter runs up 400 W for every 340 W out of the battery.
[/quote]
Our medium range Model 3 was just shy of $62K out the door with destination, CA tax and registration. $7,500 tax credit will help. I will "gas it up" with the solar panels (I ordered them before I knew we were getting the Tesla). That's a lotta gas in a nice Accord or Camry. Of course the Model 3 is a luxury car, so maybe that's not a fair comparison...
All good.

 

[Shannow]

Interested if you work nights...

You won't be "gassing up" a Tesla with your own solar panels if the car is out during the daytime.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Interested if you work nights...

You won't be "gassing up" a Tesla with your own solar panels if the car is out during the daytime.


The way we do it in Florida, is to put up 10KW worth of grid tie solar. Run the meter backwards during the day, and cars charge at night via the copious power from our new powerplant.

Of course, our new natural gas powerplant has some righteous hot air currents above it 24/7. So much so, our glider can reach 10,000 feet altitude "thermaling" over the powerplant. So clearly, the powerplant remains an integral part of the equation.

In fact, very few people have been able to create solar systems that are stand alone EV chargers.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by Shannow
Interested if you work nights...

You won't be "gassing up" a Tesla with your own solar panels if the car is out during the daytime.

I work days; but as a programmer in high tech there are no set hours. I am paid to get the job done based on what I think it takes.
So sometimes I am working in the evenings from home.

Solar works 2 ways:
1 - On the grid, during sunlight hours your meter goes backward and you bank power. You consume it when there is not sunlight. I will pay $10 per month to be on the grid.
2 - Off the grid - you purchase a battery.

Also, when banking electricity, you get a quarterly rebate check based on unused power.
My plan is to invest now and reduce gas and electricity costs going forward. I installed a tankless water heater in April which brought my gas costs down to $7 per month. Of course, in CA we don't use the heater much after March...
Shannow, I hope this helps.

 

[MCompact]

I loved the i3 REx I leased for a couple of years, but then I was only paying $105/month.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by Cujet


The way we do it in Florida, is to put up 10KW worth of grid tie solar. Run the meter backwards during the day, and cars charge at night via the copious power from our new powerplant.

Of course, our new natural gas powerplant has some righteous hot air currents above it 24/7. So much so, our glider can reach 10,000 feet altitude "thermaling" over the powerplant. So clearly, the powerplant remains an integral part of the equation.

In fact, very few people have been able to create solar systems that are stand alone EV chargers.


Oz is well down the path that California and Hawaii are at.

We don't get nett metering...6-15c for your excess solar during the day, and 27c for what you buy in.

It's the way that it should be, just not 1:1 like meters running backwards.

With the thousands of MW of rooftop solar pumping during the day, the power plants are pushed back as bid pricing falls.

Hawaii, and Ca have demonstrated that large scale renewables push the peak/off peak pricing such that their time of use tarrfis reflect the above. Cheaper at Mid-day, more expensive at night.

When solar is big enough, the peak/off peak pricing flips, charging at night is expensive.

As to Batteries, work sells these - can integrate your home, and if your use profile is right, they'll install extra cells, then pay you to be a "peaker" and send energy into the grid at peak times, for a premium...it will run your appliances while you aren't home etc. etc.
https://redbacktech.com/

But solar to battery (storage) to battery (car) is a hopelessly inefficient way of doing business...Lazard's levelized cost of storage (lifecycle analysis) is that the lifecycle costs of Li storage is $0.25/KWh when supplied with free energy (*)...plus losses (for e.g. the Tesla big battery in South Australia loses about 20% of what goes in).

Simplistic analysis in Oz, 13.5KW power wall $12,749 (Aus)...need two of those to charge your car...there's another $25 added to the cost of ownership.

Take a powerwall, 13.5Kwh, with a 10 year life, and charge/discharge it fully every day....49,275Kwh throughput in 10 years. $12,749 purchase price. 25.87 c/KWh...all paid for up front may as well pay retail as you go.

 

[Cujet]

I regularly calculate the kWh cost for solar batteries. Completely forgot about it in EV's!

 

[fdcg27]

Do we really gain anything with solar when we still need a big honking power station after sunset and on cloudy days?
I don't know much about thermal or other operating efficiencies, but I do know costs and to have an expensive installation running at low output for many hours a day due to ratepayers having solar cannot be economically efficient.
Neither battery banks nor photovoltaic cells are free, rather costly actually, and they do have limited lives. There are also inefficiencies in the charge and discharge cycles of a battery pack along with a loss of potential over many charge/discharge cycles.
It can only be a matter of time until a recognition of reality takes hold and the excess power provided with solar during the day will cease to be rewarded at all.
Why pay anyone to supplant what you can already produce cheaply?

 

[JeffKeryk]

What I learned during the decision to go solar and get off Pacific Gas and electricity:

On the PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electricity) grid you bank during during sun and consume when the sun goes down. Formulas are used to establish what you need (number and efficiency of panels).
You buy "extra" so that you do not have to buy power from the electric company and for future growth. This is why PG&E gives rebates because you are supplying them with free power.
I upped their recommendation in case I bought an EV (which we did) and I plan on using the AC more than I have int he past.
It is probably about 7 to 8 years to break even; then I am running for free.
I also chose to replace the roof even though it is in good condition. This will take advantage of the 30% tax credit for the solar package. The $11K re-roof becomes $7.7K.
It is also a hedge against raising PG&E prices which are already high and will surely continue to go up.
The panels are about $15K and have a 20 year guarantee.

People who buy a storage unit want to be off the power grid and avoid black outs. I think it was another $15K but I don't remember. I was not interested.

There are those who say it increases the value of the property but I discount that.
In Silicon Valley you pay for the Zip Code waaaay more than for the house.

Solar is a no-brainer for me. I want to reduce my cost of living because there are much better things to do with $$.
It is an investment and going green. all good.