PYB + RL ZDDP

[RDY4WAR]

At the local track over the weekend, a fellow racer mentioned he uses 6 quarts of PYB 10w-30 with 1 bottle (16oz, 0.5 qt) of RL ZDDP break-in additive. It's a late 70s Camaro with a 383ci SBC and solid flat tappet camshaft. He drives it on the street quite a bit as well as races it. He changes the oil every 6 months which ends up being 900-1200 miles.

I did the math for that combination and this is what I'm coming up with as what "should" show up if it was VOA'd.

Ca.......... 3181
Mg.......... 7
P............. 2018
Zn........... 2402
Mo.......... 177
B............. 105

I've heard that Zn and P levels in excess of 1400 ppm can do more harm than good, but I don't have any evidence to substantiate that claim. I didn't want to mention anything to him until I was sure. I feel like it could be equally as effective with half a bottle of the additive every oil change.

What's everyone's opinions on such an oil combination?

 

[bullwinkle]

I'm running 6 quarts of Delo 400 straight 30 CI-4 in my brother's bored out flat tappet 283 (302 clone) in his Jeep, also with a full bottle of break-in additive (Comp Cams this time, likely going with Rislone or Lucas after this run), wondering the same thing myself. Thought Joe Gibbs Driven was in the 2K PPM zinc range?

 

[m37charlie]

Redline Breakin Additive has about 20000ppm Ca and Zn and about 17000ppm P. So adding a full bottle to only 6qt will increase Ca and Zn by about 1540ppm and P by 1300. I would do 1/2 bottle. Getting Zn/P up over 2000ppm can cause spalling of flat lifters.

 

[dave1251]

That much ZDDP is corrosive that a fact not a claim. But go ahead and deny.

 

[RDY4WAR]

I figured as much.

When I spoke to Dave @ RL, he said the break-in additive has 14000 ppm Ca, 17000 ppm P, and 20500 ppm Zn.

I came up with the figures based on a 12:1 ratio. (0.5 qt RL to 6 qts PYB)

PYB with 770 ppm P.

((770 x 12) + 17000) / 13 = 2018.4 ppm

I know high levels of ZDDP can be corrosive, but now I'm curious about how it's corrosive. What does high levels do, that lower levels don't, that causes it to be corrosive?

 

[oil_film_movies]

Around 2,000 ppm zddp is a little high. Probably won't hurt though. I'd not go over 1600 ppm though (some chemists at DA Lubricants recommend this) preferably for the long term.

Originally Posted by TallPaul
From what I recall, too much zinc, somewhere above 1500 ppm zddp can cause pitting of the metals inside your engine, including the bearings.

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
I know high levels of ZDDP can be corrosive, but now I'm curious about how it's corrosive. What does high levels do, that lower levels don't, that causes it to be corrosive?


"there is some evidence that suggests that if ZDDP concentrations
exceed approximately 1800 ppm they can cause corrosion inhibitors to become
less effective, resulting in an increase in corrosion-related issues (Tyger, 2013)." --- Ken Tyger, Brad Penn Racing oil company, communicating to a research team
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1502/1502.07261.pdf ... so it's surface competition with other things, sounds like.

Notably, Mobil1 Racing 0w30 has about 2,000 ppm ZDDP ( https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2143222/1 ) yet that oil probably isn't designed to keep an engine healthy for years on end, just racing. ...
Typically we'll see as much as 1600 ppm in vintage car oils, and diesel oils have had around 1200 ppm.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted by oil_film_movies

Typically we'll see as much as 1600 ppm in vintage car oils, and diesel oils have had around 1200 ppm.



Even the new CK rated oils?

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Typically we'll see as much as 1600 ppm in vintage car oils, and diesel oils have had around 1200 ppm.
Even the new CK rated oils?
Yes. CK-4 5w-40 oils like M1 TDT oil has about 1200 ppm ZDDP. It is also SN, which being a 40 weight exempts it from ZDDP limits down at 800 ppm. If you have a diesel oil that is xw30 CK-4 SN, then it is limited to 800 ppm.

Thats not the real point of this discussion though. The real point being made is how much ZDDP is too much. Lots of passenger car oil have up to around 1600 ppm ZDDP, historically, and some now.

 

[Audios]

Youre only supposed to use 1 oz per qt of the redline additive, so he may be going a little too nuts with it. I use this when we replace cams/heads, or timing chains etc. I usually just fill the neck of each quart with it though.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Typically we'll see as much as 1600 ppm in vintage car oils, and diesel oils have had around 1200 ppm.
Even the new CK rated oils?
Yes. CK-4 5w-40 oils like M1 TDT oil has about 1200 ppm ZDDP. It is also SN, which being a 40 weight exempts it from ZDDP limits down at 800 ppm. If you have a diesel oil that is xw30 CK-4 SN, then it is limited to 800 ppm.

Thats not the real point of this discussion though. The real point being made is how much ZDDP is too much. Lots of passenger car oil have up to around 1600 ppm ZDDP, historically, and some now.


At 1600 PPM of ZDDP
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Around 2,000 ppm zddp is a little high. Probably won't hurt though. I'd not go over 1600 ppm though (some chemists at DA Lubricants recommend this) preferably for the long term.

Originally Posted by TallPaul
From what I recall, too much zinc, somewhere above 1500 ppm zddp can cause pitting of the metals inside your engine, including the bearings.

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
I know high levels of ZDDP can be corrosive, but now I'm curious about how it's corrosive. What does high levels do, that lower levels don't, that causes it to be corrosive?


"there is some evidence that suggests that if ZDDP concentrations
exceed approximately 1800 ppm they can cause corrosion inhibitors to become
less effective, resulting in an increase in corrosion-related issues (Tyger, 2013)." --- Ken Tyger, Brad Penn Racing oil company, communicating to a research team
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1502/1502.07261.pdf ... so it's surface competition with other things, sounds like.

Notably, Mobil1 Racing 0w30 has about 2,000 ppm ZDDP ( https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2143222/1 ) yet that oil probably isn't designed to keep an engine healthy for years on end, just racing. ...
Typically we'll see as much as 1600 ppm in vintage car oils, and diesel oils have had around 1200 ppm.

2000 PPM this is camshaft spalling territory.

 

[BrocLuno]

Break-in additive is for that - break-in. Not continuous running. the chemistry is all wrong for continuous use ...

For every day use in modd'd motors with cams and springs, 2 oz of Rislone ZDDP additive is all that is needed for a full 5+ qt crankcase assuming a low refinery dose ... If HDEO, only 1 oz needed.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by BrocLuno
Break-in additive is for that - break-in. Not continuous running. the chemistry is all wrong for continuous use ...

For every day use in modd'd motors with cams and springs, 2 oz of Rislone ZDDP additive is all that is needed for a full 5+ qt crankcase assuming a low refinery dose ... If HDEO, only 1 oz needed.


According to their website it can be used for continuous use: "Can also be used in conventional and synthetic oils during regular operation, providing an extra package of protection otherwise not found in most motor oils."