Prius comes in 4th .

[g20ooh]

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/06/10_used_cars.html

Less than 7.0% of word count .

The Ten Worst Used Cars and Trucks
Our Readers Pick the Worst Buys of 2007

By Joe Benton
ConsumerAffairs.Com

" - We combed through ConsumerAffairs.Com's database of more than 215,000 complaints to find the ten recent-vintage models that consistently bedevil their owners with one or more serious shortcomings. Admittedly, this isn't a scientific sample but behind every complaint we receive is a consumer who would have been a lot happier -- and a lot richer -- if he or she had picked a different model when out shopping around -"

4. Toyota Prius

The Toyota Prius is proving to be a good, solid car but as the hybrid approaches 100,000 miles a number of odd problems are popping up that ought to be cause for concern among consumers shopping for a secondhand hybrid.

The Japanese automaker began selling gas-and-electric cars ten years ago and is now the acknowledged hybrid leader in the automotive industry.

But a growing number of ConsumerAffairs.Com readers are reporting that the Prius hybrid technology is not aging well. With some Prius models in the U.S. on the road now for eight years and approaching 100,000 miles, owners are beginning to encounter problems that are unique to the hybrids.

One reader reported to us that in her 2004 Prius the hybrid display began to malfunction and “did not work with the result of being unable to get gas into car."

A California reader told us that the monitor is also failing in his Prius and said that Toyota is unwilling to provide any assistance because the monitor is no longer covered by the Toyota warranty.

“There is a technical service bulletin out on it from Toyota which tells the dealer how to repair the problem but only if the car is under factory warranty,” he said. “My car has 49,000 miles on it and is out of warranty.”

A Texas Prius owner with 91,000 miles on his hybrid said that "the dashboard lit up with multiple warning lights. The dealer picked it up and said that the transmission went out and it would cost $6,000 to fix and the Prius was out of warranty.”

Toyota allowed no coverage, not even partial help even though the transmission was part of the Hybrid Power train covered for 5 years and 100,000 miles.

A southern California Prius owner told us that his car has died on the freeway four times. The second time the dealer had the car for 53 days waiting for parts.

The growing number of complaints and problems owners of aging Prius hybrids are encountering suggest that a wary consumer ought to look long and hard before becoming the second owner of one of these hybrids.

Toyota warrants the hybrid drive system for 100,000 miles, but as Danny in San Antonio discovered, there can be some uncertainty as to which of the Prius components are considered part of the hybrid drive and which are not.

 

[badtlc]

Oh no! Blasphemy! Toyota only makes quality cars and the Prius is mana from heaven!/sarcasm off.

A lot of people saw this coming. I didnt know what to expect.

 

[g20ooh]

They have kept a real tight lid on anything negative .

 

[mcrn]

Notice 5 out of 10 are Fords.

 

[ekpolk]

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They have kept a real tight lid on anything negative .

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G, c'mon, it's obvious you hate this car. You attack it every chance you get. Your bias and selectively reported info is obvious, if nothing else.

For example, from the above cited text -- why is warranty expiration an evil chargeable to the fact that the car is a hybrid? Problems with the video screen? Plenty of non-hybrids now have nav screens -- so you'd expect Chevrolet or Ford to replace a nav screen out of warranty? C'mon, be for real.

Hey, it's a car. It has parts. It has a warranty. If the parts break out of wty, you have to pay for them. That's how it works -- hybrid or conventional.

But you failed to note that the Prius has had zero starters fail out of wty, zero alternators fail out of wty, zero serpentine belts, and so on. So, why no mention at all of where a hybrid has a definite advantage???

I hear an axe grinding. Why don't you just come clean and tell us about your bias. You work for GM or Ford? Detroit auto press? Some other business that needs Toyota to fail?

 

[c502cid]

Ek, one of the problems on any internet forum is that there are plenty of axes to grind on both sides. We all take it personally when our car is attacked, you and I are no exceptions. Your points are valid but it goes both ways for all brands, imports and domestics.

 

[1sttruck]

Also on the list are 'older Toyotas', which is a lot of vehicles. Sludging is the reason.

GM and DexCool is another.

 

[Greggy_D]

Quote:

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A Texas Prius owner with 91,000 miles on his hybrid said that "the dashboard lit up with multiple warning lights. The dealer picked it up and said that the transmission went out and it would cost $6,000 to fix and the Prius was out of warranty.”

Toyota allowed no coverage, not even partial help even though the transmission was part of the Hybrid Power train covered for 5 years and 100,000 miles.

---

But you have to admit, this is SO jacked up. Bad Toyota.

 

[ekpolk]

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Ek, one of the problems on any internet forum is that there are plenty of axes to grind on both sides. We all take it personally when our car is attacked, you and I are no exceptions. Your points are valid but it goes both ways for all brands, imports and domestics.

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Dead on true. And no car, not even a Toyota (

) is perfect. I just like to try to keep it at least partially connected to reality.

 

[ekpolk]

Quote:

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Quote:

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A Texas Prius owner with 91,000 miles on his hybrid said that "the dashboard lit up with multiple warning lights. The dealer picked it up and said that the transmission went out and it would cost $6,000 to fix and the Prius was out of warranty.”

Toyota allowed no coverage, not even partial help even though the transmission was part of the Hybrid Power train covered for 5 years and 100,000 miles.

---

But you have to admit, this is SO jacked up. Bad Toyota.

---

I wonder what the whole truth is??? Either the guy abused his car, and this is a just result. Or he has a bad dealer/Toyota contact, and he needs to get a lawyer. Gee, never heard of Ford or GM letting someone down on a wty claim...

 

[mstrjon32]

While it makes me happy to see that, for once, Toyota made a [censored] cars list with a higher frequency than GM; I am still on the fence about the Dexcool issue. I am still leaning more towards poor intake gasket design than the Dexcool itself for causing many of the engines failures that have plagued recent GM engines.

On my old 3100, reliable as it was, the second time I changed the intake gaskets, the diagonal bolts which hold the LIM to the head had no torque at all and were easily removed by hand. Don't tell me that Dexcool did that. I think it really is just a poor design. And yes, the bolts were properly torqued and anti-seized when they were reinstalled.

 

[Greggy_D]

Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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A Texas Prius owner with 91,000 miles on his hybrid said that "the dashboard lit up with multiple warning lights. The dealer picked it up and said that the transmission went out and it would cost $6,000 to fix and the Prius was out of warranty.”

Toyota allowed no coverage, not even partial help even though the transmission was part of the Hybrid Power train covered for 5 years and 100,000 miles.

---

But you have to admit, this is SO jacked up. Bad Toyota.

---

I wonder what the whole truth is??? Either the guy abused his car, and this is a just result. Or he has a bad dealer/Toyota contact, and he needs to get a lawyer. Gee, never heard of Ford or GM letting someone down on a wty claim...

---

Not saying that Ford/GM haven't done the same. They ALL need to step up to the plate and honor the wty.

 

[Cutehumor]

Quote:

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While it makes me happy to see that, for once, Toyota made a [censored] cars list with a higher frequency than GM; I am still on the fence about the Dexcool issue. I am still leaning more towards poor intake gasket design than the Dexcool itself for causing many of the engines failures that have plagued recent GM engines.

On my old 3100, reliable as it was, the second time I changed the intake gaskets, the diagonal bolts which hold the LIM to the head had no torque at all and were easily removed by hand. Don't tell me that Dexcool did that. I think it really is just a poor design. And yes, the bolts were properly torqued and anti-seized when they were reinstalled.

---

Probably so, GM probably thought they can use a cheaper intake gasket with the state of the art dexcool at the time.

 

[g20ooh]

Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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A Texas Prius owner with 91,000 miles on his hybrid said that "the dashboard lit up with multiple warning lights. The dealer picked it up and said that the transmission went out and it would cost $6,000 to fix and the Prius was out of warranty.”

Toyota allowed no coverage, not even partial help even though the transmission was part of the Hybrid Power train covered for 5 years and 100,000 miles.

---

But you have to admit, this is SO jacked up. Bad Toyota.

---

I wonder what the whole truth is??? Either the guy abused his car, and this is a just result. Or he has a bad dealer/Toyota contact, and he needs to get a lawyer. Gee, never heard of Ford or GM letting someone down on a wty claim...

---

Or the overly complex , lightly built , components and systems here just failed . Keep in mind , toyota appears to be the most troubled OEM in regards to powertrain problems in the field and in production . Also their history in this regard .

So this is the advantage of combining the starter - generator as (MG1) and then burying it in the " oversized transmission case" and having to buy the thing as a unit .( I'm half guessing here this is the case . If not , although the following would need to be rewritten the overall effect would be made even worse for toyota verses Honda on key component replacement costs .)

Hondas approach makes way more sense for a long term owner .

No possibility of a 6,000$ 'starter or altenator' replacement .

Also no possibility of a 6,000 DRIVECHAIN replacement or outright tranmission failure replacement .




The right kind (most) of 'hybrid' tech failure means the Honda still can start and drive and the prius is on the trailer - with a much more expensive repair bill coming .Depending on what fails etc that bill on the Honda would be anywhere from 20% to worst case , 50-55% of the toyota .( IF 6,000$ JUST COVERS the "transmission" within the "looks like an oversize transmission case" , the numbers are then much more favorable to Honda .)

Also , with the Honda no 1750 $ (or more) combined radiator/condensor replacement - a fairly common within 7-10 years occurence in various areas of the salt belt on any vehicle .

Gee , as to that assertion - and the implicit assumption they want you to make for durability , and cost of replacement contained in toyotas salestraining materials - and presented often here near verbatim that the 'transmission' is a simple as a good 'ole American open diff , is well , like any information from toyota or their employees or independent contracters , anywhere from a little bit to totally misleading to totally XXXXXXXXXXXXXX (ADMIN NOTE: Don't be trying to defeat the censor function -- board rules violation...)

This is esp. relevant for potental longterm owners or anyone planning on owning one past the most basic warranties .

 

[g20ooh]

Quote:

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While it makes me happy to see that, for once, Toyota made a [censored] cars list with a higher frequency than GM; I am still on the fence about the Dexcool issue. I am still leaning more towards poor intake gasket design than the Dexcool itself for causing many of the engines failures that have plagued recent GM engines.

On my old 3100, reliable as it was, the second time I changed the intake gaskets, the diagonal bolts which hold the LIM to the head had no torque at all and were easily removed by hand. Don't tell me that Dexcool did that. I think it really is just a poor design. And yes, the bolts were properly torqued and anti-seized when they were reinstalled.

---

Yeah , I agree . Point is in my mind , in their article , with no correction for the number of cars on the road , GM cooling systems complaints come in #10 .

I'd be willing to bet that if ' a simple % rate' was accounted for , then the used priuses would be number one - there is a lot more of the mentioned GM V6s in the limited years effected than priuses on the road .

#9 , would advance up the list as well - same sort of logic plus the sludge problems on toyota engines not covered in the Class Action Lawsuit are picked up as well .


9. Toyota Engine Sludge

Many older Toyotas have a chronic problem with engine sludge which can cost an unwary second owner thousands of dollars at the hands of a seller unwilling to disclose the sludge problem.

“We bought a 2004 Toyota Corolla S new in 2004,” a consumer wrote us. “I did the oil changes in it up to date, I did not keep the receipts from the oil and oil filter purchase. I recently took it to the dealer because of oil consumption,” he said.

“I then received a call stating that the engine was full of the jelled oil because I did the oil changes myself.”

The Toyota owner can replace the engine which will cost thousands of dollars or attempt to sell the car.

Summary: Be very careful buying a used Toyota. Have the engine examined and the oil tested . (YEP)

 

[ekpolk]

G20:

You're great at exploiting (and writing) fiction.

You still haven't answered my question about how much actual experience you have with a Prius -- on any level -- driving, working on, buying gas for, etc. About the only "exposure" you seem to have is making things up about the car (and Toyota in general as well).

Consider this "offering":

Quote:

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9. Toyota Engine Sludge

Many older Toyotas have a chronic problem with engine sludge which can cost an unwary second owner thousands of dollars at the hands of a seller unwilling to disclose the sludge problem.

“We bought a 2004 Toyota Corolla S new in 2004,” a consumer wrote us. “I did the oil changes in it up to date, I did not keep the receipts from the oil and oil filter purchase. I recently took it to the dealer because of oil consumption,” he said.

---

Truth: First, Toyota had a problem in the late 90s/early 00s with two engines only, the 1MZ-FE V-6 and the 5S-FE I-4, neither of which have been installed in the 2004 Corolla. From this sad episode, we conclude that any used Toyota is suspect??? Frankly, that's absurd. Any car, Chevy or Toyota can be abused and neglected until it fills its crankcase with sludge.

Summary: be suspicious of folks who have axes to grind, but won't admit where they're really coming from. . .


Or how about this gem:

Quote:

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Gee , as to that assertion - and the implicit assumption they want you to make for durability , and cost of replacement contained in toyotas salestraining materials - and presented often here near verbatim that the 'transmission' is a simple as a good 'ole American open diff , is well , like any information from toyota or their employees or independent contracters , anywhere from a little bit to totally misleading . . .

---

Well, here it is, in schematic form:

The moving mechanicals of this CVT are right there. The small motor-gen drives the center shaft. The gas engine drives the ring that carries the "planet" gears. The large MG drives the outer ring.

Gosh, that's complicated.

Why don't you post us a schematic of a modern 4, 5, or 6- speed automatic, and then we'll talk about complexity.


And then:

Quote:

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Or the overly complex , lightly built , components and systems here just failed . Keep in mind , toyota appears to be the most troubled OEM in regards to powertrain problems in the field and in production . Also their history in this regard .

---

That would be interesting -- if there were any factual basis for it. Hey, the Prius is NOT a new car. It has been on the road in the 'States since 2000 (01 MY), and in other markets several years before that.

So, where are all the Prii dying from complexity and unreliability????? Got any proof of that happening??? Didn't think so. Every car, every one, is going to have isolated disasters, including all the hybrids (diesels too...). You prey on the fear that one thing or another might happen. But of course, so far, none of these Chicken Little prognostications of the Toyota haters about the end of the hybrid world have come true.

Finally, let's look at this:

Quote:

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The right kind (most) of 'hybrid' tech failure means the Honda still can start and drive and the prius is on the trailer - with a much more expensive repair bill coming .Depending on what fails etc that bill on the Honda would be anywhere from 20% to worst case , 50-55% of the toyota .( IF 6,000$ JUST COVERS the "transmission" within the "looks like an oversize transmission case" , the numbers are then much more favorable to Honda .)

---

This is just silly. Any car, Prius, Civic Hybrid, Malibu, Impala, Taurus, whatever, can end up on a trailer. Or they can have partial failures that leave them driveable. I've heard of both Prii and Hyb Civics that have ended up on a hook. So what? Happens to all cars.

And, of course, if you pick a Civic Hybrid over a Prius, you get a car with about 10 cubic feet less interior room than a Prius.

So, which of Toyota's competitors has you on the payroll???

 

[01rangerxl]

Personally, I would take anything I read on Consumer Affairs with a grain of salt. If you read through the complaints that people post on there, you see a lot of problems caused by neglect, normal things that break when a vehicle ages, driver error problems, and people complaining about things working as they should (ABS seems to baffle people). I'm not saying that there may not be some truth in what they say, but generally Consumer Affairs is not a website I turn to for factual, relevant information.

 

[mstrjon32]

Unfortunately, the same could be said for Consumer Reports. I'm pretty sure the good ratings in Consumer Reports simply go to the highest bidder.

 

[ShiningArcanine]

Quote:

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Oh no! Blasphemy! Toyota only makes quality cars and the Prius is mana from heaven!/sarcasm off.

A lot of people saw this coming. I didnt know what to expect.

---

Well, the Prius is a gasoline/electric car and while electric engines, if built properly, can be more reliable than gasoline engines due to the fewer moving parts, the design of the Prius to utilize both a gasoline engine and an electric engine for propulsion is probably not inherently as reliable as a full electric or gasoline vehicle. I had thought that Toyota's engineers had been able to compensate for that in their engineering because of the lack of negative news, but given this news, I might have been wrong. I would still expect the Toyota Prius to be more reliable than any vehicle (with the exception of the Pontiac Vibe) from a domestic manufacturer.

I guess this means that people should buy the Toyota Yaris instead of the Toyota Prius if they want to save money in the long term.

 

[ekpolk]

Shine:

Two comments in response. First, every car will have strengths and weaknesses, the HSD cars are no exception. That said, I am at this point very suspicious of press denunciations of the Prius and its Toyota/Lex hybrid cousins, especially when "press" is the American automotive press. I base my suspicion on my own observations of a year with a nearly flawless car, the identical experiences of the handful of others I personally know who own HSD cars, and the legions of happy owners who post in the Prius forums.

Second, respectfully, your comment about the Yaris as an alternative is way off, but it's a common mistake. The Prius has 96 cubic feet of interior volume and almost 15 of cargo volume (a Camry is 101 and 15 for those values). By contrast, the Yaris has 85-87 cubic feet of interior (the liftback has less) and only 9-11 cu-ft of cargo room, making it substantially smaller than either a Civic or a Corolla (for comparison the 'rolla has 90 cubic feet of interior).

In short, understand that between the brainwashing we all receive about the Prius, and its admittedly odd shape, many people mistakenly think the Prius is a small car. It's not. In fact, it's much closer to Camry than it is to Yaris, yet outperforms the Yaris in fuel economy.