Pre Oilers

Messages
389
Location
Stallings, NC
There is all this talk about what the best oil is to use for protection against cold start ups and stuff like that. Most of the engine wear is on cold start up while once you are already driving there is not that much wear. Why don't cars just use electric oil pumps? I have seen ads for it before where you just turn the key and it will oil the entire engine before you actually start the car. Are there any downsides to using an electric oil pump? There must be since that would cure a majority of your engine wear.
 
Messages
6,388
Location
Washington St.
Kind'a like a cure looking for a disease. Millions of engines run hundreds of thousands of miles each without excessive bearing wear. A preoiler is no help for skirt, ring, & liner wear. In any case, will the preoiler work with cold, thick winter oil?...maybe not. I've only seen preoil pumps on industrial engines with heat on the engine, either oil or water jacket, when they're not running. Ken
 
Messages
874
Location
Pacific NW
It would be interesting to see someone try a gear pump and solenoid off the starter motor. Run for 3-4 seconds, brake and release before engaging the flywheel. Plumb between the pan and a filter sandwich adapter with a check valve. Nahhhh...
 
Messages
43,676
Location
'Stralia
When I was at Uni (and had access to their SAE papers), there was an SAE paper on pre-oilers. It indicated a potential for at keast tripling engine life, and stated that it was quite obvious why car manufacturers don't fir such devices, when the public think 200,000 miles is a good run from an engine. If I had one of those cars that requires the clutch to be depressed before allowing the motor to crank (dry thrust bearing start), I'd think seriously about a pre-oiler. The kits down here are about $500 that I've seen.
 
Messages
11,006
Location
Canberra ACT Australia
Didn't racers in the U.S use something called accusump from Canton Racing Products?. They say 30,000 units sold and counting. I've considerd importing one but mucho bucks!. Seems like a really good idea having a preoiler.
 

Ryan

Thread starter
Messages
389
Location
Stallings, NC
I figured having one would make the engine outlast the car, but it would be more of a convenience thing since it seems like there is always discussion on which oil is the best for dry startups, which oils have the most moly in it, and what other "antiwear additives" there are. If you had a preoiler, it wouldn't really matter what kind of oil you put in it, in fact dino oil would be fine as long as you changed it when needed if you consider the fact that synthetic is supposed to flow faster on cold start ups. Just seems that a pre oiler would eliminate all the concerns and discussions about which oil prevents engine wear the most when you can have a device that would dramatically reduce engine wear at its most.
 

Ryan

Thread starter
Messages
389
Location
Stallings, NC
quote:
Originally posted by Ken2: Kind'a like a cure looking for a disease. Millions of engines run hundreds of thousands of miles each without excessive bearing wear. A preoiler is no help for skirt, ring, & liner wear. In any case, will the preoiler work with cold, thick winter oil?...maybe not. I've only seen preoil pumps on industrial engines with heat on the engine, either oil or water jacket, when they're not running. Ken
Ok I just re-read your post after I made my last post. That seems to make sense, but what about the cars with ohc or dohc? I notice a lot of those kinds of cars make a lot of knocking noise when they start up cold. Isn't it also true that ohc motors sling a ton of oil around the cam area? I remember my auto tech teacher in high school talking about how he would run engines with the valve covers off and only have a light mist of oil flying around, but he did it with an OHC motor and oil gushed out everywhere. [Eek!]
 
Messages
1,874
Location
Ocala, Florida
I have a liiiiiiittle comment I'd like to make. IMO, I do not believe that most wear is coming from start up so much as it is in town driving. OK, why?, well, consider this, first, most don't let their engines sit longer than over nite then you're restarting the engine unlike a race car sits for weeks at a time. This is the primary reason for a pre luber in a race car. When you start your car engine, you do not have a load on the engine as it is just in idle. Once oil pressure is up, which only takes a few seconds, then most will go. Now, when does it wear most? During starts from a light. Why? well at idle, you have say about 28lbs of oil pressure at the rod bearings waiting on the light. When the light changes, you accelerate, during which time, your rod will stroke up and down at min 2-4times before the full oil pressure is back up to 40+, so during that time, UNDER A LOAD, you are SHEARING the 28lbs of hydrodynamic wedge between that bearing and crank, thus, you're scuffing those parts causing wear. This is why an engine running down the hwy has less wear as that engine maintains a heavy amount of oil pressure wedge on the rod bearings and not shearing the oil. It's only during acceleration from a complete stop where the engine has time to allow the pressure to drop. That's why grannie's car last longer as she lightly accelerates as opposed to the young boy that does constant jack rabbit starts. This IMO is where you have most wear. This also is why I am working on the oil pressure drop accros oil filters as to I truley believe this is what is contributing to the wear due to oil flow.
 
Messages
1,908
Location
Fort Worth, TX
Nice point, Bob. An electric pre-luber is sold by SUMMIT RACING and others. A comment on the Cummins TURBODIESEL REGISTER indicated a UOA with wear particles from the pump. MOROSO has long had a sump which is pressurized by engine oil pump and holds in reserve 1.5 to 3.0 quarts; can be fitted with a solenoid valve to release contents and pressurize engine at start-up. It then takes oil back up to keep level normal.
 
Messages
1,874
Location
Ocala, Florida
I'd suspect that wear could be reduced considerably and gas mileage would increase if you were to take the mechanical oil pump out of the engine due to the amount of drag that the oil pump actually produces, and install an electric oil pump that would maintain 30-40psi of oil pressure constant at idle or running. Then you'd reduce the shearing of low oil pressure and also you'd take off the heavy mechanical load from the oil pump giving you a slight bit more Hp and would allow for better gas mileage. If anyone has ever taken the oil pump out of an engine, try turning it by itself, then add oil and try turning it.. you just can't imagine the drag that pump has on it.
 
Messages
6,388
Location
Washington St.
Ryan, OHC engines have been around since your auto shop teacher was a kid, just not in Detroit iron. Again the wear was not notable. Noise in cold modern engines? Lots of reasons...current piston design is one biggie. There could be valve train noise you're hearing, and on a pushrod engine the cam and lifter noise is well insulated down within the engine. No one is saying that a preoil pump won't work, just that there's not much need. Ken [ April 06, 2003, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
22,012
Location
Guelph, Ontario
I guess if someone was really bent on getting maximum engine life they could put on a preoiler, use an oil preheater, an engine block heater and running a bypass oil filter. And run all of this on a diesel engine. [Smile]
 
Messages
666
Location
Triad, NC
Bob, How about engines that sit for a long time...like Patman's car over winter.....I have a couple of cars too that do not see service sometimes for a month at at time.......???
quote:
Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY: I have a liiiiiiittle comment I'd like to make. IMO, I do not believe that most wear is coming from start up so much as it is in town driving. OK, why?, well, consider this, first, most don't let their engines sit longer than over nite then you're restarting the engine unlike a race car sits for weeks at a time. This is the primary reason for a pre luber in a race car. When you start your car engine, you do not have a load on the engine as it is just in idle. Once oil pressure is up, which only takes a few seconds, then most will go. Now, when does it wear most? During starts from a light. Why? well at idle, you have say about 28lbs of oil pressure at the rod bearings waiting on the light. When the light changes, you accelerate, during which time, your rod will stroke up and down at min 2-4times before the full oil pressure is back up to 40+, so during that time, UNDER A LOAD, you are SHEARING the 28lbs of hydrodynamic wedge between that bearing and crank, thus, you're scuffing those parts causing wear. This is why an engine running down the hwy has less wear as that engine maintains a heavy amount of oil pressure wedge on the rod bearings and not shearing the oil. It's only during acceleration from a complete stop where the engine has time to allow the pressure to drop. That's why grannie's car last longer as she lightly accelerates as opposed to the young boy that does constant jack rabbit starts. This IMO is where you have most wear. This also is why I am working on the oil pressure drop accros oil filters as to I truley believe this is what is contributing to the wear due to oil flow.
 
Messages
658
Location
EU
If these devices were as indispensible as some of the testimonials on that website suggest, then I suspect that there would be more talk about them on <b>this</b> website. There'd be a Pre-oiler forum right alongside the Oil Filter forum. It would be entertaining to read the posts that scoffed at the Fram Monster-Guard Pre-oiler that had the cardboard solenoid valves.
 
Messages
144
Location
Illinois
What I do when I feel the need for a pre-oiling the motor before starting is to floor the gas and hold it there while I crank for 5 seconds or so. The PCM will kill the fuel injectors if it sees the throttle at wide open and the engine is being cranked.
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
22,012
Location
Guelph, Ontario
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alex D: [QB] Bob, How about engines that sit for a long time...like Patman's car over winter.....I have a couple of cars too that do not see service sometimes for a month at at time.......??? [QUOTE] Actually my LT1 Firebird is my daily driver, even in winter. But when I had my LS1 Firebird I stored it every winter. I wouldn't even drive that car in the rain! Although if you see both cars, you'd never know the difference, both looked immaculate. This is my current car:  - This was my 98 Formula (which I never should've sold) [Frown]  - [ April 06, 2003, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]
 
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