PP5W-30, 2002 Crown Vic, 4500 miles

[Mud]

I had recently replaced the timing chain guides, tensioners, and chains in my 02 CV. This was done at about 106K miles on a well maintained vehicle. Although these are generally bulletproof engines, the 00-03 years are known for issues with premature wear of the timing tensioner arms, which are aluminum with a molded plastic guide overlay. Excessive breakup of the plastic and/or aluminum has been known to clog the oil pickup with engine seizure.

In my case, there was no audible noise/rattle or anything to lead me to believe there may have been a problem. Using a mech stethascope revealed a faint grinding noise from the driver side cover. I was also about to install a larger MAF/intake, upper plenum, underdrive pulleys and an aftermarket tune, so I decided to do some pre-emptive work to ensure timing components were in good shape.

I typically change oil/filter on the conservative side, 4500-5000 miles and always use a Motorcraft or Wix/NAPA filter. In this case repairs were done at about 3500 miles, then I ran the car another 1000 miles on the same oil, then changed it at 4500 miles, sending a sample to Blackstone. I also filtered the oil just for grins and there was no debris in it, but to be honest I did not anticipate finding any chunks of stuff.

Here is a picture of what all this looks like on another 4.6. The tensioner arms are the curved pieces on either side.

Parts replaced were timing chains, tensioners, tensioner arms, and additional plastic guides. Sprockets were not replaced. The chains and tensioners were actually fine, I only replaced them since I already had bought new parts. When I sent the oil in to Blackstone I gave them info on what I had done and that I would not be surprised to see high alum and iron.

Here is a picture of the left and right guides - as you can see the right guide was into the aluminum and the left not too far from same, the plastic overlay was paper thin. Very glad I decided to do the repairs.

Interested in your feedback, among other things:
-was going to do next change at 5K miles.
-should I sample at next change or the one after that?
-I generally use either Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 or Valvoline Semi Synthetic 5w30, always use Wix or Motorcraft filters.

THE REPORT:

COMMENTS:
Your premonition about the high aluminum and iron was spot on. The aluminum here is most likely
from the tensioner issue you noted, and the silicon could be from the plastic molded section attached to the
tensioner arms. Silicon could also be from any silicone-based sealer or lube applied when the work was
done. Iron can come from any steel part, and as you noted, iron's count likely includes some extra metal
from the wear-in of the new timing chains. The mildly thick viscosity isn't an issue and no contamination was
found. Resample at 5-6K mi next OCI to monitor.

ELEMENT (PPM) - SAMPLE - AVERAGE
ALUMINUM - 47 - 3
CHROMIUM - 2 - 1
IRON - 29 - 15
COPPER - 12 - 24
LEAD - 0 - 1
TIN - 0 - 0
MOLYBDENUM - 64 - 73
NICKEL - 1 - 0
MANGANESE - 1 - 3
SILVER - 0 - 0
TITANIUM - 1 - 0
POTASSIUM - 3 - 2
BORON - 25 - 58
SILICON - 207 - 13
SODIUM - 9 - 43
CALCIUM - 2923 - 2104
MAGNESIUM - 12 - 64
PHOSPHORUS - 680 - 637
ZINC - 804 - 788
BARIUM - 0 -0

cSt Viscosity @ 100°C=60.6, TARGET=46-59
SUS Viscosity @ 210°F=10.39, TARGET=6.0-10.2
Flashpoint in °F= 420, TARGET>355
Fuel % Antifreeze %=0, TARGET=0
Water %=0, TARGET Insolubles %=.3, TARGET<.6

 

[demarpaint]

Good call!

 

[hate2work]

Nice catch

I'm curious as to why you put the old oil back in and ran it another 1000 miles. I'm not sure I would have done that. Or maybe I mis-understood you?

 

[saaber1]

Mud, very cool info. Do you think that if a different oil than the semi-syn were used in the first 106k that the guides may look different? After seeing some cars that have run ester-based oil all their life and they are like new inside with over 300k miles and also hearing anectdotes such as Barkerman's (below), I wonder if an ester oil with high anti-wear additives would have made a difference?

"Red Line is a good daily driver oil and it just might make your engine last longer. We have several 300k+ cars around here that use nothing but Red Line and it's not that they are over 300k but that they are over 300k with no internal mechanical work and to a boroscope look like new inside. I know a few examples don't prove a point but they are a good indicator. One fellow delivers some kind of radio-active isotopes with his 78 Toyota pickup and has 510k miles on Red Line with nothing more than regular maintenance and about 4 water pumps. He also uses Frantz oil and fuel filters and a spin-on coolant filter with an anode. He is on the original camshaft and valves. I've done a compression check and it's withing 5% of new specs and the spread from high to low is 8psi. You can still see the hone marks at the bottom of the cylinders and there is only a cosmetic ridge at the top of the cylinders. Granted this series of Toyota 4 bangers is considered to be a good engine I think that Red Line is performing well. He started with Castrol 10w30 with the new truck and a few years later after hanging around our shop switched to Red Line 10-30 and has graduated up to 20w-50 a couple of years ago. His oil consumption is 1 quart in 5k miles. Granted he is a careful driver because of his cargo and LA has no weather but I think he is doing well. He recently dropped a bundle in rebuilding the suspension front and back, complete brake job and replaced all the flexible brake lines, master cylinder, rear wheel cylinders and new calipers, including his second transmission rebuild for bearings and seals, no other hard parts also using Red Line MTL. He also had the seals replaced in the rear end and uses Red Line gear lube and uses that red colored Red Line CV2 grease in the grease fittings (yes it has fittings you grease with a hand gun). All this was his answer to the question of buying a new pickup or keeping the old one. I think it can be said that he likes the old one. The company he works for footed the bill for a complete repaint and upholstery job. We talked Yokohama into making him a screaming deal on some new Avid TRZ's. His only problem is that we can expect a letter from Congress about his disregard for the economy by not just junking his pickup and buying a new one. He is hoping that the new sound system including a CD player for his books on CD will be useful in his defense. But to those that think Red Line is only good for racing we think it performs well for commuting but is an expensive choice. Sorry for running on I just though this is an unusual case and you might be interested."

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1082506

 

[Mud]

Thanks for your input!

hate2work, the oil was never drained from the car. When this repair is done, the oil pan remains on the car and there is no need to drain the oil. My decision was simply to leave the oil in and finish the mileage interval.

saaber1, great info, thank you. I don't think that the oil would have made a difference as this is a known problem with the 00-03 cars, especially the P71's (copcars) that see a ton of idle time. There is a TSB out to address this and I am reasonably confident that this would have happened no matter what oil was used and no matter what the OCI would have been.

I am curious to see what the next UOA will tell me. I am not that smart in the ways of oil and I am open to recommendations for another oil such as the Redline if feasible, or maybe my current selection will be fine.
This car sees PP or Valvoline as mentioned, I also have a 95 P71 with close to 170K miles that has been fed a diet of Penn yellow bottle, Havoline, or Valvoline, all conventional 5w30 oil and always a Motorcraft or Wix filter. Never a problem, both cars average 0 to 1/2 qt of oil added sometimes between changes.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Toyota has used that same design for years First they used a design that was just entirely Bakelite and it would crack over time even if it was not worn out. SO then they went to aluminum backed models with Bakelite plastic rubbing against the chains. Even with the aluuminum you can see how it only changed the method of failure they still fail at random and give little warning if you are not looking for it or doing UOA!

As to milage it is mixed bag on that one....I have seen some on Toyota's that where waffer thin but still in tact at 200,000 and seen some fail at 60,000. I do not think the oil makes a difference because ZDDP and other additives really can not bound to the plastic the way they do to steel so other then reducing friction the oil doesnot do much to help these. It is all down to hydrodynamic wedge action to seperate the chian from the plastic.