PP 5w30 vs M1 0w30 AFE

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forgive me if this has been covered, but i couldn't find anything with the search function. i'm trying to wrap my head around the numbers so i may have this incorrect. looking at the viscocities, it appears that the PP is thinner at just about every temperature except temps below -30C or -35C it also appears that the pour point of M1 is slightly lower at -50 vs -48 for the PP. i've already got the PP 5w30 in the sump, but looking at it more it looks like there is likely nothing to be gained with the 0w30 for my climate. we get down to -20's (F), but i've never seen -30 F (saw -29F once). i chose the PP for cold flowability and notably low NOACK, where the M1 was not published but assumed to be higher with the 0w vs the 5w. am i on the right track with the numbers and some of my assumptions?
 
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from -30f to 100c they will be similar enough you wouldn't know which one you had. about ~~ -30c and below the 0w30afe should be thinner.
 
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OVERKILL

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Originally Posted By: Rand
from -30f to 100c they will be similar enough you wouldn't know which one you had. about ~~ -30c and below the 0w30afe should be thinner.
Would be neat to have CCS for the M1 product. Using MRV and making a rough estimate using the "doubling rule":
Code:
       PP 5w-30    M1 0w-30
-40C  >60,000cP    13,250cP
-35C   10,500cP     6,625cP
-30C    5,250cP     3,312cP
-25C    2,625cP     1,656cP
-20C    1,312cP       828cP
Now of course those are estimates but they should be somewhat close. I've never seen sheets with the multi MRV's listed that went above -20C IIRC, so that's why I stopped there.
 

meborder

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so there is some to be gained, perhaps. we get down to -30C every year for a day or two. would one notice any difference between the two at -30c? I mean, sitting in your car freezing your butt off while you start it?
 

OVERKILL

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Originally Posted By: meborder
so there is some to be gained, perhaps. we get down to -30C every year for a day or two. would one notice any difference between the two at -30c? I mean, sitting in your car freezing your butt off while you start it?
It might crank a bit faster.
 
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Rand
from -30f to 100c they will be similar enough you wouldn't know which one you had. about ~~ -30c and below the 0w30afe should be thinner.
Would be neat to have CCS for the M1 product. Using MRV and making a rough estimate using the "doubling rule":
Code:
       PP 5w-30    M1 0w-30
-40C  >60,000cP    13,250cP
-35C   10,500cP     6,625cP
-30C    5,250cP     3,312cP
-25C    2,625cP     1,656cP
-20C    1,312cP       828cP
Now of course those are estimates but they should be somewhat close. I've never seen sheets with the multi MRV's listed that went above -20C IIRC, so that's why I stopped there.
Yes an oil's viscosity can easily double from -35C to -40 for a 0W oil or from -30C to -35C for a 5W oil etc but what's important is the reason why; namely, the parabolic rise in viscosity at extremely cold temp's as oils "hit the wall" so to speak. But at warmer temp's the rate of viscosity rise as the temp's drop is much lower and continues to be lower the warmer it gets. From -20C to -25C for both 0W and 5W oils the viscosity rise is likely no more than 50%. All we can say comparing PP 5W-30 and M1 0W-30 is that M1 would be a better choice if you're routinely starting an engine unaided at temp's of -35C and lower. At temp's anything warmer than -30C is any ones guess. And I would also add that the lower KV spec's of PP doesn't automatically mean it's lighter than M1 0W-30 at any oil temp's. KV spec's vary based on oil chemistry for a given operational viscosity at the temperature being compared and PP and AFE have different oil chemistries. Pennzoil hasn't provided the HTHSV of the current PP but if it's higher than the 3.0cP of AFE, and I suspect it may be, since the VIs of the two oils are very close, it is possible that PP is slightly heavier at more typical start-up temperatures. My hunch is that there is likely no significant difference between the two oils at temp's down to the -20C the OP is inquired about.
 

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As illustrated with this PDS (which is I believe the third which I've seen this demonstrated, the others were more mundane oils, this example was just convenient): The doubling (this is for CCS) appears to work right up to -10C. IIRC, the last one I saw with MRV stopped at -20C, but the same characteristic was shown.
 
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It's the characteristic parabolic rise in viscosity of all oils as they approach their PP that makes it very tricky to predict when it starts to happen dramatically. With PAOs vs GP IIIs it's delayed so whatever factor you use it's not the same. It's much easier to predict increases in viscosity when the rate of change is much lower at warmer temp's. Richard Widman has stated that viscosity graphs are good down to about -10C for 5W oils and presumably 5C lower for 0W oils. His prediction for M1 at -15C is 1,675cSt and over 2,600cSt at -20C. Predicting down by halving the MRV gives your 828cP figure and 414cP at -15C. Not sure what the approximate conversion factors are for the MRV and CCS cP measures to cSt. BTW the Gulf 5W-60 PDS is odd. Why no CCS at -30C the temperature it is to be measured at for a 5W oil? With a KV40 of 164cSt the CCS figures seem very low.
 

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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
It's the characteristic parabolic rise in viscosity of all oils as they approach their PP that makes it very tricky to predict when it starts to happen dramatically. With PAOs vs GP IIIs it's delayed so whatever factor you use it's not the same. It's much easier to predict increases in viscosity when the rate of change is much lower at warmer temp's. Richard Widman has stated that viscosity graphs are good down to about -10C for 5W oils and presumably 5C lower for 0W oils. His prediction for M1 at -15C is 1,675cSt and over 2,600cSt at -20C. Predicting down by halving the MRV gives your 828cP figure and 414cP at -15C. Not sure what the approximate conversion factors are for the MRV and CCS cP measures to cSt. BTW the Gulf 5W-60 PDS is odd. Why no CCS at -30C the temperature it is to be measured at for a 5W oil? With a KV40 of 164cSt the CCS figures seem very low.
As per the link Shannow posted, as well as seeing a number of PDS's that support the "doubling rule" (including the one we just spoke of), I believe I am going to stick with the numbers derived from it over something that many have said is not accurate below 0C. And no, I don't believe you can compare the CCS/MRV numbers to the 40/100 cSt numbers. They are only useful for comparing to the CCS/MRV of other oils at the approximate range of temperatures we are discussing. Which also means we can't compare the prediction numbers you've cited above to the doubling numbers, which are based on numbers derived using a different method. Look at the Gulf sheet and the amount of change on the temperatures provided, if you allow for the 4th number, you essentially have four data points that support that viscosity roughly doubles/halves with a 5C change in temperature within the temperatures shown. That's twice the amount of data we have for calculating VI! wink I'm not saying that there isn't the possibility that some oils may not behave in this manner. But every sheet I've seen where we have been provided with multiple CCS or MRV numbers, this is what I've observed. That's why I came up with the "doubling rule" in the first place, as it was supported by multiple PDS's. Ultimately, it is more data for determining low temp performance and is more useful than the calculator, which we know, at the temps discussed, is plain wrong.
 
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
All we can say comparing PP 5W-30 and M1 0W-30 is that M1 would be a better choice if you're routinely starting an engine unaided at temp's of -35C and lower. At temp's anything warmer than -30C is any ones guess. My hunch is that there is likely no significant difference between the two oils at temp's down to the -20C the OP is inquired about.
+1
 
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Originally Posted By: CT8
I would die in -30*f temps. Below 70* F stresses me.
Off ft. My men don't even consider whining about cold til the compressors freeze solid. Try -40. We see those temps often in the winter.
 

meborder

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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
My hunch is that there is likely no significant difference between the two oils at temp's down to the -20C the OP is inquired about.
to be clear, I'm not concerned about -20°C (that's only -4°F -- easy peasy) no modern car should care what oil you have at that temp, I'm worried about temps much of -25°F to -30°F (-30°C to -35°C)
 
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Both would be adequate, in my view, down to those temperatures. But, if one is springing for a synthetic and is concerned about cold cranking performance, there is merit in choosing the 0w-XX. I'd feel comfortable using either of those oils.
 
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meborder as you say, if you're only seeing temp's approaching -30C for one or two days for the season, even that's well within the pumping range of a 5W oil let alone a synthetic like PP 5W-30 which has very low MRV ans CCS spec's vs many other 5W-30s.
 

meborder

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that gives me some good piece of mind. i'm kind of just looking for suspenders to go along with my belt, ya know? thanks for all the replies. i feel pretty good about the PP 5w30. i've got 2qt of 0w30 AFE i bought for my genset, but i think i'll get a 5qt jug of AFE at wallyworld and use that for the subaru instead. that will give me the 6qt i need plus one for top off if needed (never have had to add oil to the 'ru, but you never know). i'm thinking i'll use the PP 5w30 in the genset as well. should be plenty robust for the genset and not have to worry so much about consumption.
 
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