PP 5w-20: 4920k miles 05 Honda Odyssey

[HondaMan]

Many thanks to Terry Dyson!!!

This UOA may be of interest to some in that namely:

1.) Air filter was cheapo STP put in fresh for this run of oil. The AF saw the exact same number of miles that the oil did.

2.) Honda Filtech Inc. oil filter had been left on from previous OCI, so filter had a total of 10,322 miles on when sample was taken.

No make up oil added. At least one bottle of Techron (poured into empty tank then filled with 11 gals. of fuel).

Fuel is still an issue, no surprise.

I have a K&N oil filter spun on and will follow the same process.

I purposefully poured in my last stash of MC as this will be the last UOA the van will see for quite some time. I am confident that MC or better will work well with this type of interval. OLM btw was only down to 30%, based on all the UOA history, I will stick with about a 5K drain which I feel is perfect.

7/27/2007 12/21/2006 5/1/2005
Oil PP 5w-20 PP 5w-20 MC 5w-20 FF
Engine Miles 48690 38368 28913 22292 18734 6040 3461
Miles on oil 4920 5506 4370 3558 3571 2579 3461

Iron 12 10 10 11 13 16 34
Copper 26 24 36 36 32 61 141
Tin 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Lead 0 0 0 0 0 0 5
Chromium 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
Nickel 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Aluminum 3 2 3 2 1 3 12
Titanium 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Silver 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Calcium 2352 1960 1772 1565 2026 1936 1879
Magnesium 18 16 11 10 7 10 7
Zinc 798 796 993 802 768 813 988
Phosphorus 660 660 764 716 644 670 865
Barium 0 2 0 1 0 1 6
Molybdenum 49 37 44 36 35 69 383
Antimony 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Silicon 11 14 21 17 13 36 118
Sodium 3 4 4 3 3 3 8

Boron 26 21 129 174 148 218 26
Potassium 0 0 0 0 0 1 4
Vanadium 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Vis 40C/100C 48.6/8.9 47.7/8.5 41.3/7.7 39.2/7.4 /7.7 /7.7 /8.2
TAN 2.09 2.3 2.1 1.75
Flashpoint 275 270 285 280
Oxidation 26 26 20 16
Nitration 14 14 11 9
Water (KF - ppm)600 328 1037 742
TBN 3 3.8 3.70 3.00

Fuel 1.68 255 245
Soot 0 0 0 0
Glycol/Coolant 0.57 0.493 0.0 0.0
Vndx 163 155 172 161
SulfateByprds 30 27 22.7

Note: I noticed that the site I used to host my images is not up, I will have to investigate. Once back online, I will post new image with all UOA history in nice format.

 

[buster]

Looks good HondaMan. Things are trending in the right direction. 7k miles isn't out of the question.

 

[HondaMan]

buster,

I really wish I could say I feel the same way.

I just posted in the 'Fuel Dilution' thread stating that I feel with this particular engine (mine at least) in what it is showing us with the fuel, 5k OCIs with a 'Quality' oil is where I feel most comfortable.

One the plus side, this UOA lends well to the 'every other' oil filter change, and it need not be the famous Amsoil EaO.

I went K&N for the oil filter, and perhaps the next one will be an Amsoil EaO 13.

The air filter I think will also get an 'every other' approach.

As I mentioned in the other thread, the cheapo AF we know is helping with the fuel dilution, but it does not solve the problem in any way.

I do like how solid the fuel is at: Vis 40C/100C 48.6/8.9

 

[tripleM]

Hondaman: thanks for the UOA.
If the fuel dilution seems to not be adding any wear, so why not bump it up to 5500 like you had on the prior OCI?

 

[HondaMan]

tripleM,

I knew that we where about to make three city run that would rack up about 1k in miles. I just felt uneasy. The oil filter was on my mind ALOT.

I now know not to worry about the oil filter 'every other change' and hopefully the K&N (or Amsoil later) filter will flow better, not bypass as much, and offer even better filtration.

As I coined it in the other thread: "Double Super Secret PP" did very well.

And again thanks to Terry Dyson for all of insight!

 

[Steve S]

Has anyone with a Honda talked to Honda about the feul dilution issue?

 

[HondaMan]

Steve S,

I think it would be hard to get them to listen. First and foremost, the OLM is right on track .... even with dino (well sort of based on that most recent Havoline UOA).

If the fuel was not an issue, 10k drain is possible, but Honda would fall back and say: "Hey your OLM is telling you to drain the oil and when it does tell you, based on your UOAs the oil has some life left"
i.e. "What is the issue?"

I am researching fuel maps and all the possible options via the factory service manual, but it is almost impossible.....

Perfect example:

In this engine configuration, Honda has implemented 'Fuel Enrichment' based on ........ (drum roll please) AC compressor demand!!
(Gotta smooth out that idle!!)

I did not know about the above... just learned of it... but once I read about this sensor... I told myself it was a lost cause and to just use a good oil to withstand the fuel.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

It's almost all new cars (check out the uoas on here even). I don't know what we can do about it. I have a 2007 Toyota that loads the oil with fuel. Oil used from 10-15k was loaded. And I end up with horrible MPG the last half of the drain...I'm assuming the fuel destroys the friction properties of the oil.
So it's not just Honda.

 

[HondaMan]

Finally got a chance to fix my ISP issues...
Here is a more readable image

 

[VeeDubb]

The TAN, flashpoint, water, and nitration would all make me uncomfortable. This is the first time I've paid close attention to a Honda engine only because I was very close to getting an Odyssey. Is fuel dilution common in Odysseys?

 

[Pablo]

Your TBN is getting hit pretty hard. Is this why you don't run the OLM all the way out? Or as maybe you stated earlier - fear of fuel dilution? What was the % on the OLM?

Viscosity held up great or.......

I would have expected the Cu to have dropped more by now. Other metals look ok.

What did Terry say about the coolant?

 

[HondaMan]

Veedubb,

Fuel dilution seems common among only some Honda V6 engines, OR, as another thread sugguests, it is not being caught or reported correctly by the specific lab.

Bingo on the nitration, should be much lower.

Pablo,

The fuel is the my main concern. OLM was at 30% this time.
I myself wonder if the TAN is a reflection of the 'every other' oil filter process.
This UOA essentially saw about 1/3 qt. less of fresh oil.

So with the UOA taken on 12/21/2006, new oil and filter where in place, ran ~ 5400 miles, dropped only the oil and then ran the 4920 miles and took the sample for Terry.

Terry does have a comment in regards to Cu that I cannot share.
In terms of coolant, I can say this much: I have to watch it very closely over the next months.

 

[VeeDubb]

What's causing the fuel dilution in some of these Honda V6 engines?

 

[HondaF1Fanatic]

Wasn't the idle point raised in the 3.5L to combat NVH? I wonder if that has anything to do with the increased dilution. AFAIK the dilution problem is only really present in the 3.5, I haven't seen a UOA on here or any of the Accord forums I frequent indicating that the 3.0 suffers from this problem as well.

Jon