Porsche wants 50% of its sales to be fully electric or electrified by 2025

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Originally Posted by AC1DD
cost of purchase
Only for people with rare usage profiles or who can't afford any but the cheapest vehicles. Also, because the vast majority of vehicles are financed, the real metric isn't the number on the price tag, but total monthly cost of ownership. In that respect, EVs are competitive with ICE vehicles that have significantly lower initial price tags.
Originally Posted by AC1DD
lack of practicality in larger vehicles
So, trucks, and passenger vehicles with more than two rows. Fair point. But again, that doesn't cover more than a minority of usage profiles, does it?
Originally Posted by AC1DD
repair (even if other parts of the car)
Only an issue for Teslas out of warranty. And even then it's massively offset by the fact that there are whole categories of repair and maintenance that simply do not apply. And that situation is improving every day.
Originally Posted by AC1DD
practical life of batteries
Long enough not to be a significant issue any more for most people.
Originally Posted by AC1DD
sufficient ability for our US grid to handle large numbers of people charging their cars especially at 240 V
Not likely to be a problem at the rate EVs are likely to be adopted.
Originally Posted by AC1DD
lack of easily accessible charging stations, many that exist don't even work
Only an issue if you run out of charge, which most people won't as long as they charge overnight. Heck, a lot of people wouldn't even need to charge every night.
Originally Posted by AC1DD
fire dangers in accidents and emergencies
Only in extremely rare cases, many of which are offset by the fact that they're not carrying around vast quantities of a liquid specifically designed to be flammable.
Originally Posted by AC1DD
and the lack of certain metals when making the batteries themselves
Where have you heard this might be an issue? Is it because of an absolute shortage on the planet, or simply the current state of mining infrastructure? How does this compare to the expected future availability of petroleum?
Originally Posted by AC1DD
and the public doesn't care about EVs, except when coerced by gov't.
Have you met a lot of Tesla owners? It's a religion...
 

emg

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Originally Posted by d00df00d
Only for people with rare usage profiles or who can't afford any but the cheapest vehicles.
In other words, the average car-buyer. Few people want to buy an electric runabout which costs more than a Honda Civic but is less practical.
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Also, because the vast majority of vehicles are financed, the real metric isn't the number on the price tag, but total monthly cost of ownership. In that respect, EVs are competitive with ICE vehicles that have significantly lower initial price tags.
Yet one of the main things I see electric vehicle owners saying online is that their car is wonderful because it depreciated so much in the first couple of years that they were able to buy it for much less than the cost of a similar used ICE vehicle. A car which depreciates much faster and costs more to build is not going to lease for less unless it's being subsidized by the manufacturer.
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
sufficient ability for our US grid to handle large numbers of people charging their cars especially at 240 V
Not likely to be a problem at the rate EVs are likely to be adopted.
Unless you live in California. Or anywhere, really, as the grid becomes less and less reliable. Frankly, I suspect one of the reasons EVs will become more common is because the infrastructure across the West will continue to decay to the point where the only kind of vehicle you can rely on is one you can 'refuel' at home while living off-grid. And because you can build one at home with commonly-available materials that you can salvage.
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
lack of easily accessible charging stations, many that exist don't even work
Only an issue if you run out of charge, which most people won't as long as they charge overnight.
Or live in California, or anywhere else with unreliable power. Which will be pretty much everywhere soon.
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
fire dangers in accidents and emergencies
Only in extremely rare cases, many of which are offset by the fact that they're not carrying around vast quantities of a liquid specifically designed to be flammable.
That'll be very reassuring when I'm trapped in a vehicle that's burning me alive with a fire that can't even be put out with water. I'm unlikely to buy an EV until they switch to batteries which don't suffer from thermal runaway.
 
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Originally Posted by emg
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Only for people with rare usage profiles or who can't afford any but the cheapest vehicles.
In other words, the average car-buyer. Few people want to buy an electric runabout which costs more than a Honda Civic but is less practical.
Don't know what to make of this except that you and I have very different ideas about what words like "average" mean.
Originally Posted by emg
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Also, because the vast majority of vehicles are financed, the real metric isn't the number on the price tag, but total monthly cost of ownership. In that respect, EVs are competitive with ICE vehicles that have significantly lower initial price tags.
Yet one of the main things I see electric vehicle owners saying online is that their car is wonderful because it depreciated so much in the first couple of years that they were able to buy it for much less than the cost of a similar used ICE vehicle. A car which depreciates much faster and costs more to build is not going to lease for less unless it's being subsidized by the manufacturer.
Total monthly cost of ownership includes running costs. When your fuel costs drop close to zero, your brakes last twice as long, and you have no regular maintenance to worry about, that frees up a ton of room in the budget. Also, to the extent that you can snag a used EV for less than the price of a comparable used ICE vehicle... doesn't that undermine the purchase price argument?
Originally Posted by emg
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
sufficient ability for our US grid to handle large numbers of people charging their cars especially at 240 V
Not likely to be a problem at the rate EVs are likely to be adopted.
Unless you live in California. Or anywhere, really, as the grid becomes less and less reliable.
AC1DD said "US grid." I took that to mean the country as a whole. shrug
Originally Posted by emg
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
lack of easily accessible charging stations, many that exist don't even work
Only an issue if you run out of charge, which most people won't as long as they charge overnight.
Or live in California, or anywhere else with unreliable power. Which will be pretty much everywhere soon.
Given the distances most people drive, they could afford to lose power for several hours every night and still end up with a full battery in the morning.
Originally Posted by emg
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
fire dangers in accidents and emergencies
Only in extremely rare cases, many of which are offset by the fact that they're not carrying around vast quantities of a liquid specifically designed to be flammable.
That'll be very reassuring when I'm trapped in a vehicle that's burning me alive with a fire that can't even be put out with water. I'm unlikely to buy an EV until they switch to batteries which don't suffer from thermal runaway.
Are you also worried about being disembowled by wild boars that randomly materialize in your living room? I mean, sure it's unlikely, but that's not very reassuring when your guts are spilling out, is it?
 

emg

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Originally Posted by d00df00d
Don't know what to make of this except that you and I have very different ideas about what words like "average" mean.
Apparently so. The average car-buyer is far more likely to be buying a Civic than a Porsche.
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Total monthly cost of ownership includes running costs. When your fuel costs drop close to zero, your brakes last twice as long, and you have no regular maintenance to worry about, that frees up a ton of room in the budget.
The fuel cost on our Civic is close to zero (we fill it up every couple of weeks), and there's been very little maintenance in ten years aside from oil changes. So it still wins. And, again, if EVs were so lovely and cheap to run, I wouldn't have lots of people telling me that they got such a great deal on their car because the EV they bought depreciated so fast that they paid a small fraction of the original cost to buy it when it was a couple of years old. People would actually want to keep them and drive them, rather than dump them.
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AC1DD said "US grid." I took that to mean the country as a whole. shrug
California is part of the US grid. And they're expecting ten years of blackouts. And the rest of the grid is getting less and less reliable.
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Are you also worried about being disembowled by wild boars who randomly materialize in your living room?
People have been burned alive in a Tesla, unable to get out of the wreck as the battery went into thermal runaway. I'm not aware of anyone being disembowled by a wild bore that randomly materialized in their living room. Edit: here you go: https://www.news.com.au/technology/...s-story/1f7d1009def611d6499731e4a8109fc3 Want to find a story where someone was disembowled by a wild bore that randomly materialized in their living room?
 
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Wow, lots of great points here... And you are all correct! Depending on your opinion, of course. Teslas are expensive. So are 1966 Shelby Mustangs, Porsches, Beemers, Caddys, etc. So unless you are driving a 1988 Civic with 250K miles, it is just a matter of choice. Range anxiety is real. But you learn. I live in CA with high gas prices, lots of sun, solar panels, lots of charging stations, free or subsidized charging at work, so EV makes sense. But Silicon Valley is an extreme case. Your results will vary. And I do have ICE cars for use as well. We took the RX on a 250K spin yesterday. EVs (Teslas are the big example) are not for everyone. A few points... It seems all the car companies are developing EVs. Tesla is selling every Model 3 they can make. These must be a reason. I will tell you this: the Model 3 is futuristic; there is no other car like it. It is a flat out blast to drive. Owners love 'em; satisfaction is off the charts. It's your money, buy what works for you.
 

JOD

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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Wow, lots of great points here...
There's a lot of nonsense as well, though... I mean, I absolutely love the internal combustion engine. It's definitely my guilty pleasure. I'm using some the carbon credits I have by not having kids, but even I know its days are numbered... The one argument that makes my brain hurt though is the whole "you're gonna burn to death in your Tesla". I mean, what is the likelihood of a gasoline-powered car catching fire vs an electric car? Do people realize that gasoline-powered cars catching fire is a pretty common occurrence? I mean, driving around with several gallons of combustible material does some with some risk....
 
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Originally Posted by JOD
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Wow, lots of great points here...
There's a lot of nonsense as well, though... I mean, I absolutely love the internal combustion engine. It's definitely my guilty pleasure. I'm using some the carbon credits I have by not having kids, but even I know its days are numbered... The one argument that makes my brain hurt though is the whole "you're gonna burn to death in your Tesla". I mean, what is the likelihood of a gasoline-powered car catching fire vs an electric car? Do people realize that gasoline-powered cars catching fire is a pretty common occurrence? I mean, driving around with several gallons of combustible material does some with some risk....
Gotta sell newspapers...
 
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These EVs are extremely dangerous because you literally can't put the fires out for hours.
 
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Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Imagine if the 400 gasoline car fires every day got this kind of press?
You missed the point deliberately, no doubt. The problem is that it is extremely difficult to put out these EV car fires, even of individual cars! They have had cases where the FD need to take the car and submerge the car in a water tank for as much as 24 hours before they can be sure it is out.
 
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
The problem is that it is extremely difficult to put out these EV car fires, even of individual cars! They have had cases where the FD need to take the car and submerge the car in a water tank for as much as 24 hours before they can be sure it is out.
Very true. So now we're comparing a more severe event (EV battery fire) to a more likely one (ICE electrical or fuel fire). As with air travel vs. driving, the proof will be in the fatality rates per unit population. Have you looked up those numbers? Also worth noting two things: 1. Tesla seems to have this problem worse than other manufacturers have had, which means the average for EVs as a whole is better than Tesla's; and 2. All EVs, including Teslas, will only get safer with time.
 
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Are there any fast PHEV's though? The Volt does 0-60 in 8.4 seconds, the Clarity is 7.5, Optima 8.0....etc. A fully-electric drivetrain has a marked advantage in this department IMHO. I think looking at the Bolt (6.5 seconds), E-Tron (5.5 seconds), i-Pace (4.5) and of course the Tesla options demonstrates that.
There is absolutely no reason that a PHEV can't be wicked fast using the boost of electric power. The Cayenne is 0-60 in 3 something. I think we simply see "econo-cars" are the first common PHEV's. Clearly a full EV has an initial acceleration advantage as all 4 wheels can be operated at the traction limit. Even so, Tesla could add a small 20KW onboard generator and still be wicked fast. But it's good to know that even the 10 second EV's accelerate exactly like a 12-13 second car once the initial launch is made. Sure, most of us don't need hard acceleration at 80-100MPH. But there is a combustion engine advantage here. Tesla wins the 1/4 mile but the Corvette wins the flying mile every time.
 
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It is funny how someone is worried that people will be shamed into buying EV in the future, but not shamed into buying crossover or SUV today (instead of a sedan or hatchback). It is also funny how people use Porsche as an example that car companies are forced into making mostly EVs. Porsche has to because they are the one selling bragging right and mid life crisis toys, and young people nowadays don't like Porsche because, they are for mid life crisis and old people, and they want Tesla instead. So unless they change, they will be out of business in 20 years. Yes, most people with EVs have another gasoline car or truck, so the EVs are mostly for commuting and not for long trips, and therefore not forced to rent a car for long trip. I'd hardly consider saving fuel cost and driving carpool lane daily but have to drive another car in long trip a bad trade off, it is actually how multi-car families should buy their cars. Not every single one need to be jack of all trade SUVs, and not all of them should be EVs that can't take long trips. Solar panels on new construction? Because most of the cost in residential solar is roofing cost and not the panel cost, so it actually make sense in many area with full sun and its own municipal utility like Sacramento. All you need to work around the peak grid load is to do time based pricing, and people will run their electric dryer and charge their EV at off peak hours. I'm not buying a new EV anytime soon, but if I were to buy a new car right now it'd be a used Chevy Volt (extended range commute, around $8k) or Nissan Leaf ($5k, reduced range, for short commute), not an $60k fully loaded pickup or SUV. p.s. the California grid problem is because of cost of maintenance vs profit. You can't expect infrastructure to last forever without replacing / rebuilding them after a while, and you can't keep kicking the can down the hall indefinitely.
 
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
The only "practical shortcoming" of an EV is range, and for most people most of the time it's an illusion. Any current EV has enough range to cover the vast majority of daily usage. Road trips might be more challenging, so they might require owning or renting an ICE vehicle. But most people don't take trips like that more than a few times a year, and in exchange they save a ton of money and never have to visit a gas station. Massive net increase in convenience if you think about it. Some people do drive enough to be limited by the range of a modern EV, but they're a minority. For the majority of people, range anxiety is just that: anxiety. As real as it is, and as compelling as it can be, it's still all in the mind.
We thought the very same thing. However when the battery died on a backroad trip in central FL, there were no charging stations nearby. So on to the flatbed it went. The fact is, people drive 12,000 miles per year and a good number of those trips would require a time consuming charge. Nor are there always savings. EV's cost nearly twice as much as a conventional car. Electricity is often cheap, so there is that, but it too is not free. A model S, charged at local pay charging stations will cost about $10 per 100 miles, or about 10 cents per mile. Locally gas is $2.40, so it's the same cost as 24 miles per gallon.
 
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Originally Posted by Cujet
when the battery died on a backroad trip in central FL, there were no charging stations nearby. So on to the flatbed it went.
No way did that happen unless you were pushing the range limit or had an electronics failure.
Originally Posted by Cujet
A model S, charged at local pay charging stations will cost about $10 per 100 miles, or about 10 cents per mile. Locally gas is $2.40, so it's the same cost as 24 miles per gallon.
Most of these cars will be charged at home, where electricity is MUCH cheaper.
 
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
A model S, charged at local pay charging stations will cost about $10 per 100 miles, or about 10 cents per mile. Locally gas is $2.40, so it's the same cost as 24 miles per gallon.
This math is like using $5/gal on a highway robbery station vs free electricity at work to charge to justify EV is infinitely better. A typical Tesla or any EV doesn't cost $10 to charge 100 miles (at my workplace my coworker pays about 26c/kwh for the level 2 charging), and in California where a lot of the Tesla is sold it has not been $2.40 a gallon since Clinton was in office (it is $3.94-$4.29 this week around here for 87). Anyways, most people buying Tesla won't use a Corolla as a comparison, people driving Nissan Leaf or Chevy Bolt might. Speaking of deal, last month there was a lease deal on Hyundai Ionic EV that dropped the price to almost $120 a month, and about 3 years ago Honda was leasing 2 year old Fit EV with insurance paid for for $199 a month, and a coworker of mine got eGolf lease for $199 a month 3 years ago with no down pay. If you can wait you can get really good deals on those near year end, just like gasoline cars.
 
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^ Want to make it clear that that quoted passage with my handle on it was actually written by Cujet, not me.
 
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