Porsche wants 50% of its sales to be fully electric or electrified by 2025

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Originally Posted by E365
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by E365
The BMW M5 is AWD.
Well, that's new, that car was historically RWD. Anyways, see edit above. I see the current AWD M5 0-60 is 3.3 seconds, the same as the TrackHawk, and the TrackHawk has 100 more HP, but is also a fair bit heavier. Given the performance of the Demon, which is probably similar in weight to the M5, that's likely where BMW would have to be power-wise to get the M5 into the same 0-60 range as the Tesla. The instant torque and no gears to shift is a marked advantage for the EV, even if the overall HP is lower.
Exactly. And that's been the whole point of my posts. The first two pages of this thread are full of "its because of those darn liberals!" Which is ridiculous. It's because Porsche understands the only way to make cars significantly faster right now is electrification.
Wrong! The EU and China have essentially outlawed ICE light duty cars/trucks from their markets. Porsche et al, are moving to EV in order to be allowed to continue selling vehicles in these markets. That's it.
 
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Originally Posted by E365
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
This is just a stupid comment. BMW and Mercedes are not baffled by anything. Anyone can build a "Tesla" but nobody, and this includes Tesla, can build one profitably.
I'd kinda go with this line of thinking if BMW / Mercedes still hadn't touched the EV/PHEV realm. But they have. The i3 has been out for a while. It's fine, it's interesting. But it's no Tesla (range, speed, infotainment, etc).
So I'm one of probably very few people in this thread who have had real seat time in multiple Teslas and i3s. Yes, the Model 3 kicks the crap out of the i3 as a sport sedan. Much more capable dynamically, longer-ranged, more efficient per kWh, and roomier inside. But the i3 kicks the crap out of the Model 3 as a runabout and for long-term out-of-warranty ownership. Much smaller footprint, higher seating position like a small crossover's but without the dynamic compromises, better interior tech, vastly better build quality. I'd strongly suggest trying to think about vehicles in more dimensions than just the ones that make your favorite brand look good, and maybe taking a good honest look at some other vehicles. As someone with his own brand of automotive elitism -- not to mention a former Tesla evangelist -- I know it's hard, but I promise it's worth it.
 
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by E365
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
This is just a stupid comment. BMW and Mercedes are not baffled by anything. Anyone can build a "Tesla" but nobody, and this includes Tesla, can build one profitably.
I'd kinda go with this line of thinking if BMW / Mercedes still hadn't touched the EV/PHEV realm. But they have. The i3 has been out for a while. It's fine, it's interesting. But it's no Tesla (range, speed, infotainment, etc).
So I'm one of probably very few people in this thread who have had real seat time in multiple Teslas and i3s. Yes, the Model 3 kicks the crap out of the i3 as a sport sedan. Much more capable dynamically, longer-ranged, more efficient per kWh, and roomier inside. But the i3 kicks the crap out of the Model 3 as a runabout and for long-term out-of-warranty ownership. Much smaller footprint, higher seating position like a small crossover's but without the dynamic compromises, better interior tech, vastly better build quality. I'd strongly suggest trying to think about vehicles in more dimensions than just the ones that make your favorite brand look good, and maybe taking a good honest look at some other vehicles. As someone with his own brand of automotive elitism -- not to mention a former Tesla evangelist -- I know it's hard, but I promise it's worth it.
In Silicon Valley, the i3 was really hot a few years ago; owners I have spoke with love 'em. Getting into the commuter lane, charging at work, driving a BMW... What's not to like? I can tell many i3 owners are now driving Model 3s.
 
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
I'd strongly suggest trying to think about vehicles in more dimensions than just the ones that make your favorite brand look good, and maybe taking a good honest look at some other vehicles. As someone with his own brand of automotive elitism -- not to mention a former Tesla evangelist -- I know it's hard, but I promise it's worth it.
Too much prejudice here against EV's. We should all get out and drive them, they are exciting and different. But they are not for everyone...
 
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Originally Posted by SteveSRT8
Originally Posted by d00df00d
I'd strongly suggest trying to think about vehicles in more dimensions than just the ones that make your favorite brand look good, and maybe taking a good honest look at some other vehicles. As someone with his own brand of automotive elitism -- not to mention a former Tesla evangelist -- I know it's hard, but I promise it's worth it.
Too much prejudice here against EV's. We should all get out and drive them, they are exciting and different. But they are not for everyone...
It may seem that way. But to be sure, many of us bring up the very real negatives. I absolutely love driving the various Tesla cars. I love the performance, I can afford one, and I'd have one if it fit my needs. Unfortunately, I'm of the opinion that there won't be any battery breakthroughs, just incremental improvements and ever larger, ever more costly batteries. I don't need or want a toy. I need to go from FL to NY And back on a weekly basis and I need to do it quickly. An EV adds 2 days to a round trip, thereby consuming 100% of the week's free time. Forcing people to rent cars for trips is silly expensive, and it's often difficult to get what you need or like. It's no answer. I know, I do it weekly.
 
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Originally Posted by SteveSRT8
Originally Posted by d00df00d
I'd strongly suggest trying to think about vehicles in more dimensions than just the ones that make your favorite brand look good, and maybe taking a good honest look at some other vehicles. As someone with his own brand of automotive elitism -- not to mention a former Tesla evangelist -- I know it's hard, but I promise it's worth it.
Too much prejudice here against EV's. We should all get out and drive them, they are exciting and different. But they are not for everyone...
There is too much prejudice wrt most things here. I think what Jeff is doing is ideal for him and great for progress. But yeah it does not fit where I live and what I do, now. As for EV's very much hope the free market drives it in the US. Tesla? Other companies might not push too hard with Tesla having a command position … but if the idiosyncratic leader decides one day he needs to play more with something more far reaching (sorry) … a big company could strike a deal and go EV's in that manner. You need a (certain) sustainable ROCE over longer periods than what we've seen. Tesla SUV's should be able to make money …
 
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I assume that basic business rules will still apply. The consumer has to want to buy what you desire to sell to him or her. Yes, heavily advertising the product you want to sell will help to increase the consumers demand. But that will only go so far, and when the rubber meets the road the average consumer has to desire that product. Building what you want to sell along with wishing and hoping the consumer buys in is IMO a risky business strategy.
 
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Closer to the original topic, Taycan reviews are starting to trickle out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XgxLxOFWOw Starting 10:51: "...I think the Porsche feels the most capable to drive, almost unquestionably the most engaging, and it feels perhaps the most special inside.... If [EVs] work for you, and you want to spend a lot of money on one, I think this is the one to have." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8cdjdRlnfk 4:36: "...overall, the Taycan's system is easier to use than a pure touchscreen in a Tesla Model S." 6:13: "...I know there are a lot of Tesla fans out there who won't appreciate me saying this, but even compared with a Model 3 Performance, this thing is in a completely different league for handling." 6:31: "And then there's the steering, which is another thing the Taycan does better than any Tesla model. It just gives you a much better sense of connection with the front wheels..." 7:59: "We reckon interior quality in the Taycan is better than [in] any other electric vehicle we've ever driven... so if that's your thing, forget a Tesla; you'll want one of these." Also found this gem in an older review: "...the Taycan is way more serious about being a full-fledged sports sedan, something the Model S never was." https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a28662827/2020-porsche-taycan-prototype-ride/ Call the Taycan less practical or more expensive if you want. It sure is. Call it worse in terms of value for money if you want, too, because that's a subjective argument that is anyone's to make. But please let's not waste time and text pretending it's "less advanced" than a Tesla or implying that reasonable people shouldn't prefer it.
 
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
Call the Taycan less practical or more expensive if you want. It sure is. Call it worse in terms of value for money if you want, too, because that's a subjective argument that is anyone's to make. But please let's not waste time and text pretending it's "less advanced" than a Tesla or implying that reasonable people shouldn't prefer it.
The Taycan is an awesome car and will push other EVs to be further evolve. No doubt the fit and finish will be stellar; handling suburb. And it is a Porsche, one of the worlds great cars. These cars are EVs; I am talking about EV technology. The older Tesla has better batteries, motor, AP, etc. The number 1 hit on EVs is range. The Taycan is expected to come in around 200 miles; perhaps less. The top Model S is 370 miles and is an older car due for an upgrade. In the end is is good for we consumers. I salute both companies. The 2 cars are not really competitors; look at the price difference. But is is great the there is competition to the Tesla. Push that envelope!
 
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
These cars are EVs; I am talking about EV technology. The older Tesla has better batteries, motor, AP, etc. The number 1 hit on EVs is range. The Taycan is expected to come in around 200 miles; perhaps less. The top Model S is 370 miles and is an older car due for an upgrade.
Tesla has higher capacity batteries. It's not clear that their batteries are "better" in any other sense, especially given that they are known to have gained at least some of their capacity in the past by running smaller safety margins on battery tech (chemistry, construction, etc.) than other manufacturers have been willing to do. Flat-out false that their motors are better than the Taycan's. The Taycan's motors are a major factor in that car's ability to crank out max-acceleration launches all day whereas a Tesla can only do it a few times when the planets are aligned just right. Certainly true that Tesla's "autopilot" functionality is significantly ahead of other manufacturers', though it's worth remember that it's still not actually an autopilot, and Tesla has been a bit reckless by cultivating and milking popular overestimation of its capabilities. Range: Let's put the Taycan on Tesla tires, or vice versa, and see what happens. Then let's look at how much each company over-provisions its battery packs, and what the implications of that are for battery pack lifespan. Until then, feel free to knock the Taycan for its range disadvantage vs. most Teslas, but don't pretend that means Porsche is "behind" Tesla. For all you know, it's at least as likely that they intentionally sacrificed range in favor of other priorities. Meanwhile, back among people who have driven both cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIsMlMU8MjI 25:10: "...Can you actually get a Tesla that will do all of this, and will do it more than once or twice or more than three times?... I know that a Model S can't go around corners like this, and I know a Model S can't stop like this -- Model S brakes are nowhere near [this car's]..." 26:41: "Would I rather have [a Taycan] than a high-spec Model S?... I would."
 
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
These cars are EVs; I am talking about EV technology. The older Tesla has better batteries, motor, AP, etc. The number 1 hit on EVs is range. The Taycan is expected to come in around 200 miles; perhaps less. The top Model S is 370 miles and is an older car due for an upgrade.
Tesla has higher capacity batteries. It's not clear that their batteries are "better" in any other sense, especially given that they are known to have gained at least some of their capacity in the past by running smaller safety margins on battery tech (chemistry, construction, etc.) than other manufacturers have been willing to do. Flat-out false that their motors are better than the Taycan's. The Taycan's motors are a major factor in that car's ability to crank out max-acceleration launches all day whereas a Tesla can only do it a few times when the planets are aligned just right. Certainly true that Tesla's "autopilot" functionality is significantly ahead of other manufacturers', though it's worth remember that it's still not actually an autopilot, and Tesla has been a bit reckless by cultivating and milking popular overestimation of its capabilities. Range: Let's put the Taycan on Tesla tires, or vice versa, and see what happens. Then let's look at how much each company over-provisions its battery packs, and what the implications of that are for battery pack lifespan. Until then, feel free to knock the Taycan for its range disadvantage vs. most Teslas, but don't pretend that means Porsche is "behind" Tesla. For all you know, it's at least as likely that they intentionally sacrificed range in favor of other priorities. Meanwhile, back among people who have driven both cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIsMlMU8MjI 25:10: "...Can you actually get a Tesla that will do all of this, and will do it more than once or twice or more than three times?... I know that a Model S can't go around corners like this, and I know a Model S can't stop like this -- Model S brakes are nowhere near [this car's]..." 26:41: "Would I rather have [a Taycan] than a high-spec Model S?... I would."
That's a whole lotta what ifs vs. reality. By the way, I salute the Taycan and E-Tron; both are incredible cars.
 
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Tesla needs to be challenged. Its sad to park next to an $80k tesla m3, at work, in my lowly golf and see better paint and body panel gaps on my made in mexico golf. VWAG will get us some much more normal, affordable, and maybe more fun to drive EVs. Tesla has done great things but they need to feel the competition. I certainly do not want an all glass roof or gullwing doors. Nor do i want a giant screen as my only means of interfacing with the vehicle. Get me an EV sportwagen with AWD, sub 6 second 0 to 60, 200 mile range, and a price near 30k flat and i will probably go for it. A Tesla Model Y could work too but i hate spending more than about 30k on a vehicle.
 
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Direct comparo of a Model S Performance vs. a Taycan Turbo S. Makes it clear that Porsche isn't actually going after Tesla per se, but rather making its own car with its own personality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F28i1D1OJ5o The Taycan wins on handling, braking, feel, feedback, interior quality, high-speed acceleration, and maximum charge rate. The Model S wins on passenger space, cargo volume, range, off-the-line acceleration, non-driving-related doodads, and price. Tires are cited as a significant factor in the range difference.
 
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
Direct comparo of a Model S Performance vs. a Taycan Turbo S. Makes it clear that Porsche isn't actually going after Tesla per se, but rather making its own car with its own personality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F28i1D1OJ5o The Taycan wins on handling, braking, feel, feedback, interior quality, high-speed acceleration, and maximum charge rate. The Model S wins on passenger space, cargo volume, range, off-the-line acceleration, non-driving-related doodads, and price. Tires are cited as a significant factor in the range difference.
It appears Top Gear lied on their Model S acceleration data. It just magically has the exact same 0-60, 0-100, and 1/4 mile times as a test of an older Model S from 2 years ago. https://youtu.be/lE9eJtG8jaU
 
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Originally Posted by E365
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Direct comparo of a Model S Performance vs. a Taycan Turbo S. Makes it clear that Porsche isn't actually going after Tesla per se, but rather making its own car with its own personality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F28i1D1OJ5o The Taycan wins on handling, braking, feel, feedback, interior quality, high-speed acceleration, and maximum charge rate. The Model S wins on passenger space, cargo volume, range, off-the-line acceleration, non-driving-related doodads, and price. Tires are cited as a significant factor in the range difference.
It appears Top Gear lied on their Model S acceleration data. It just magically has the exact same 0-60, 0-100, and 1/4 mile times as a test of an older Model S from 2 years ago. https://youtu.be/lE9eJtG8jaU
Yikes. That's... not great.
 
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by E365
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Direct comparo of a Model S Performance vs. a Taycan Turbo S. Makes it clear that Porsche isn't actually going after Tesla per se, but rather making its own car with its own personality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F28i1D1OJ5o The Taycan wins on handling, braking, feel, feedback, interior quality, high-speed acceleration, and maximum charge rate. The Model S wins on passenger space, cargo volume, range, off-the-line acceleration, non-driving-related doodads, and price. Tires are cited as a significant factor in the range difference.
It appears Top Gear lied on their Model S acceleration data. It just magically has the exact same 0-60, 0-100, and 1/4 mile times as a test of an older Model S from 2 years ago. https://youtu.be/lE9eJtG8jaU
Yikes. That's... not great.
Top Gear says they did the race several times, the Taycan won every time, and the fastest time they got for the Model S is slower than the time they posted — which is why they used the old numbers instead. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/porsche-taycan-vs-tesla-model-s-drag-race-clarification
 
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Originally Posted by SeaJay
I assume that basic business rules will still apply. The consumer has to want to buy what you desire to sell to him or her. Yes, heavily advertising the product you want to sell will help to increase the consumers demand. But that will only go so far, and when the rubber meets the road the average consumer has to desire that product. Building what you want to sell along with wishing and hoping the consumer buys in is IMO a risky business strategy.
In the USA and a few other countries that might be the case, but it's very obvious to me that these corporations are hoping and getting some regulations that are designed to coerce consumers into buying into the EV. Fact is from a practical aspect there are so many shortcomings with EVs still that I don't see them being widely accepted by the " "free market" for perhaps 75 years with companies being able to make gradual improvements if they are possible.
 
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The only "practical shortcoming" of an EV is range, and for most people most of the time it's an illusion. Any current EV has enough range to cover the vast majority of daily usage. Road trips might be more challenging, so they might require owning or renting an ICE vehicle. But most people don't take trips like that more than a few times a year, and in exchange they save a ton of money and never have to visit a gas station. Massive net increase in convenience if you think about it. Some people do drive enough to be limited by the range of a modern EV, but they're a minority. For the majority of people, range anxiety is just that: anxiety. As real as it is, and as compelling as it can be, it's still all in the mind.
 
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
The only "practical shortcoming" of an EV is range.
Nope. There is cost of purchase, lack of practicality in larger vehicles, repair (even if other parts of the car) practical life of batteries, sufficient ability for our US grid to handle large numbers of people charging their cars especially at 240 V, lack of easily accessible charging stations, many that exist don't even work, fire dangers in accidents and emergencies....and the lack of certain metals when making the batteries themselves, and the public doesn't care about EVs, except when coerced by gov't.
 
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I believe that increasingly people will be shamed into owning an EV. I live in Vancouver, BC, Canada... a very "politically-correct" kind of place and for sure a left-leaning civic government. I expect, soon, that ICE cars will be really penalized when, say, venturing down-town. Yeah, with the number of bike lanes in this very, very rainy city.... Yeah, I'm gonna take my elderly mother to the doctor on the back of my pedal bike.... I'll "double" her. Having said this, I can see buying a cheap EV (if there is such at thing); mebe a Nissan Leaf, off-lease. And then, for sure ALSO having my ICE car for trips. The other thing, here in the land of uber expensive real-estate.... Fueling for cars will be done by mobile fueling trucks. Is being done so, already. Gas stations are becoming fewer and fewer.
 
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