Porsche wants 50% of its sales to be fully electric or electrified by 2025

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Due to subsidies in Quebec a coworker purchased a certified Tesla 2013. He has had trips to Atlantic provinces with sparse charging and even to Florida keys. Hey said you just have to plan route/charges appropriately. He is one car family with wife and two kids. Sadly he did not visit me due to lack of charging en route which has been improved now in coastal NH.
 
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Of course the Taycan is a much newer car, but is behind in technology; for example no AP, lower range, etc.
Less kitsch and lower numbers don't mean "behind in technology." Or if it does, you probably don't want to play that game. The Taycan has an 800V electrical system, vastly better heat management, vastly better interior tech, vastly better chassis tech (rear wheel steer, PDCC, etc.), better brakes.... "Autopilot" is a disingenuous name for a genuinely impressive but incomplete technology. Range is important but AFAIK Tesla owes its advantage largely to running smaller (though still significant) safety margins than the big vendors are comfortable with. Tesla deserves credit for its innovations, but the fact is that they owe a great deal to the soundness of their cars' fundamentals, which come down to nothing more than the most common-sense way to build an EV. When the car's floor is made of battery, the powertrain is silent, and the engineering team isn't made up of complete idiots, then yeah, the car's going to drive pretty [censored] well. It's nothing another company couldn't achieve.
Disagree. The Taycan is a much newer car. During development, it promised more range than the Model S; it missed its goal significantly. No other auto company has matched Tesla range. Not even close. Tesla is years ahead of any other maker. Regarding AP, Tesla has billions of miles of AP driving data. Yes, AP is evolving with Tesla at the technology forefront. The Taycan electrical system is different and amazing, but how is it superior? Slower, less range, charging availability; all behind the older car. Taycan fit and finish will be stellar to be sure. But from a technological standpoint, the older Tesla numbers are simply better. I salute incredible EVs like the Taycan. But at $180K it is hardly a car many will own. Same for the $100K Model S. These cars are the foundation for the future. With the Model 3, the future is here now. One of the safest cars on the road. Faster than any comparably priced car. And expected to be very cost effective. Fun as heck
Sorry -- missed the point. LMK if you want to try agian.
 
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Originally Posted by madRiver
Due to subsidies in Quebec a coworker purchased a certified Tesla 2013. He has had trips to Atlantic provinces with sparse charging and even to Florida keys. Hey said you just have to plan route/charges appropriately. He is one car family with wife and two kids. Sadly he did not visit me due to lack of charging en route which has been improved now in coastal NH.
It is different; you adjust, learn. You quickly realize it is very doable, just different. Of course, Silicon Valley is charger rich... And getting more so. Starting off with a full tank every morning and using the computer lane is super. When driving the Model 3, I still keep an eye out for cheap gas stations; then I laugh at myself. Having said that, if we went a further distance, the RX Hybrid (great on gas) or GS (not so great) is a great choice.
 
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Sorry -- missed the point. LMK if you want to try agian.
All good.
No, I mean YOU missed the point.
 
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Sorry -- missed the point. LMK if you want to try agian.
All good.
No, I mean YOU missed the point.
Understood. All good.
 
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Originally Posted by madRiver
Hey said you just have to plan route/charges appropriately. Sadly he did not visit me due to lack of charging en route which has been improved now in coastal NH.
Ain't nobody got time for that! I'm driving the loaded up pickup truck from NY to FL tomorrow. I'll do it in 18 hours, 3 fuel stops. It's not just a matter of planning your charge stops, it's a matter of making a lot of stops for long periods of time. The same trip in an EV is 30 hours. The fact that you can do it, does not mean you should. Any way you slice it, the EV trip adds an additional day.
 
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EV range is largely a matter of battery size. Insufficient battery size limits range. Sure, aerodynamics and rolling resistance tweaks help. But the bottom line is simply that it takes a certain amount of energy to do a certain amount of work. Case in point: The Tesla charged with a very efficient diesel generator vs. the diesel vehicle of the same size. Fuel use was nearly identical for any given trip. AND the diesel vehicle was not a hybrid with braking regen or other features that help economy.
 
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Originally Posted by Cujet
EV range is largely a matter of battery size. Insufficient battery size limits range. Sure, aerodynamics and rolling resistance tweaks help. But the bottom line is simply that it takes a certain amount of energy to do a certain amount of work.
It's also a matter of chemistry and cell design. I've read that Tesla selected a chemistry and cell design that errs more on the side of power density than safety relative to other automakers' battery packs, though obviously Tesla's battery packs are still pretty safe. When the BMW i3 came out, and for a while afterward, one of its selling points was that it used automotive grade batteries in its battery pack whereas Tesla didn't. Not sure if that's still true but it explains a lot.
 
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Originally Posted by Cujet
EV range is largely a matter of battery size.
Originally Posted by d00df00d
It's also a matter of chemistry and cell design.
Note: There is little real world improvement in Lithium cells. Tesla's batteries in the model S: The model year 2012 85 has 7104 cells, and the 2019 100 has 8,256 cells. What seems to be an improvement is really just more cells. The model 3 uses 2170 cells. Larger, so they can use fewer. But not necessarily better, and not more energy dense.
 
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Clearly distance trips are not a benefit of EVs. Yes, there are stories of owners carefully planning trips, with stops along the way for lunch, servicing children, etc. that compares favorably to ICE cars. But this is nothing more than a statistic stacking the deck. It ain't the real world I live in. Now if you drive to work less than 200 miles and can charge at work at subsidized rates, drive in the commuter lane, EVs have a clear time advantage. Gassing up takes time. This is a primary reason for many EV purchases. Some of these owners tell me they never charge at home.
 
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Originally Posted by E365
Do most here not know a Tesla Model S does 0-60 in 2.28 seconds? A large family sedan. The Plaid model will be about 2.0 seconds and the upcoming Roadster will be under 1.9 seconds. BMW and Mercedes have been making cars for 100 years and are STILL baffled on how to make a sedan that fast. They are doing it because gas cars are slow, have pathetic torque curves and have poor throttle response. Porsche PDK transmissions are also super slow compared to the throttle response of an electric system with no gear changes.
This is just a stupid comment. BMW and Mercedes are not baffled by anything. Anyone can build a "Tesla" but nobody, and this includes Tesla, can build one profitably.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by E365
Do most here not know a Tesla Model S does 0-60 in 2.28 seconds? A large family sedan. The Plaid model will be about 2.0 seconds and the upcoming Roadster will be under 1.9 seconds. BMW and Mercedes have been making cars for 100 years and are STILL baffled on how to make a sedan that fast. They are doing it because gas cars are slow, have pathetic torque curves and have poor throttle response. Porsche PDK transmissions are also super slow compared to the throttle response of an electric system with no gear changes.
This is just a stupid comment. BMW and Mercedes are not baffled by anything. Anyone can build a "Tesla" but nobody, and this includes Tesla, can build one profitably.
I'm talking about their gas cars. They ARE baffled how to do it with their gas cars. Why doesn't the new BMW M5 go 0-60 MPH in 2 seconds then? It's because they can't.
 

OVERKILL

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Originally Posted by E365
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by E365
Do most here not know a Tesla Model S does 0-60 in 2.28 seconds? A large family sedan. The Plaid model will be about 2.0 seconds and the upcoming Roadster will be under 1.9 seconds. BMW and Mercedes have been making cars for 100 years and are STILL baffled on how to make a sedan that fast. They are doing it because gas cars are slow, have pathetic torque curves and have poor throttle response. Porsche PDK transmissions are also super slow compared to the throttle response of an electric system with no gear changes.
This is just a stupid comment. BMW and Mercedes are not baffled by anything. Anyone can build a "Tesla" but nobody, and this includes Tesla, can build one profitably.
I'm talking about their gas cars. They ARE baffled how to do it with their gas cars. Why doesn't the new BMW M5 go 0-60 MPH in 2 seconds then? It's because they can't.
It's not AWD. The portly Grand Cherokee Trackhawk does it in 3.3. The Dodge Demon does 0-60 in 2.3, and that's on R-compound rubber and with suspension specifically setup to weight transfer. Trying to get a RWD non-drag car out of the hole without blowing the tires off is difficult. There have been plenty of gas cars over the years with sub 2-second 0-60 times, this isn't some mystical thing that is eluding other manufacturers. Ford's BOSS 10, which was just a fun exercise by the boys at SVT did 0-60 in 1.9 seconds and ran the 1/4 in the mid 10's.
 
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by E365
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by E365
Do most here not know a Tesla Model S does 0-60 in 2.28 seconds? A large family sedan. The Plaid model will be about 2.0 seconds and the upcoming Roadster will be under 1.9 seconds. BMW and Mercedes have been making cars for 100 years and are STILL baffled on how to make a sedan that fast. They are doing it because gas cars are slow, have pathetic torque curves and have poor throttle response. Porsche PDK transmissions are also super slow compared to the throttle response of an electric system with no gear changes.
This is just a stupid comment. BMW and Mercedes are not baffled by anything. Anyone can build a "Tesla" but nobody, and this includes Tesla, can build one profitably.
I'm talking about their gas cars. They ARE baffled how to do it with their gas cars. Why doesn't the new BMW M5 go 0-60 MPH in 2 seconds then? It's because they can't.
It's not AWD. The portly Grand Cherokee Trackhawk does it in 3.3.
The BMW M5 is AWD.
 

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Originally Posted by E365
The BMW M5 is AWD.
Well, that's new, that car was historically RWD. Anyways, see edit above. I see the current AWD M5 0-60 is 3.3 seconds, the same as the TrackHawk, and the TrackHawk has 100 more HP, but is also a fair bit heavier. Given the performance of the Demon, which is probably similar in weight to the M5, that's likely where BMW would have to be power-wise to get the M5 into the same 0-60 range as the Tesla. The instant torque and no gears to shift is a marked advantage for the EV, even if the overall HP is lower.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
This is just a stupid comment. BMW and Mercedes are not baffled by anything. Anyone can build a "Tesla" but nobody, and this includes Tesla, can build one profitably.
I'd kinda go with this line of thinking if BMW / Mercedes still hadn't touched the EV/PHEV realm. But they have. The i3 has been out for a while. It's fine, it's interesting. But it's no Tesla (range, speed, infotainment, etc). Mercedes has a GLC 350e PHEV. And somehow it accelerates SLOWER than the non PHEV versions, even though they all have a 2.0T and it has way more combined HP/Tq. Now that's half-assed engineering.
 
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by E365
The BMW M5 is AWD.
Well, that's new, that car was historically RWD. Anyways, see edit above. I see the current AWD M5 0-60 is 3.3 seconds, the same as the TrackHawk, and the TrackHawk has 100 more HP, but is also a fair bit heavier. Given the performance of the Demon, which is probably similar in weight to the M5, that's likely where BMW would have to be power-wise to get the M5 into the same 0-60 range as the Tesla. The instant torque and no gears to shift is a marked advantage for the EV, even if the overall HP is lower.
Exactly. And that's been the whole point of my posts. The first two pages of this thread are full of "its because of those darn liberals!" Which is ridiculous. It's because Porsche understands the only way to make cars significantly faster right now is electrification.
 
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Originally Posted by E365
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by E365
Do most here not know a Tesla Model S does 0-60 in 2.28 seconds? A large family sedan. The Plaid model will be about 2.0 seconds and the upcoming Roadster will be under 1.9 seconds. BMW and Mercedes have been making cars for 100 years and are STILL baffled on how to make a sedan that fast. They are doing it because gas cars are slow, have pathetic torque curves and have poor throttle response. Porsche PDK transmissions are also super slow compared to the throttle response of an electric system with no gear changes.
This is just a stupid comment. BMW and Mercedes are not baffled by anything. Anyone can build a "Tesla" but nobody, and this includes Tesla, can build one profitably.
I'm talking about their gas cars. They ARE baffled how to do it with their gas cars. Why doesn't the new BMW M5 go 0-60 MPH in 2 seconds then? It's because they can't.
Another asinine comment from someone who's too ignorant to realize that it's an engineering achievement to have a mass produced gas powered drivetrain covered in a body with a worse drag coefficient essentially churning out 0-60 times of 3.1 seconds as long as there's gasoline in the tank. Oh and the vehicle is sold at a profit unlike the money loser Model S. Good luck trying that in a Tesla while keeping it from spontaneously bursting into flames.
 
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OVERKILL

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Are there any fast PHEV's though? The Volt does 0-60 in 8.4 seconds, the Clarity is 7.5, Optima 8.0....etc. A fully-electric drivetrain has a marked advantage in this department IMHO. I think looking at the Bolt (6.5 seconds), E-Tron (5.5 seconds), i-Pace (4.5) and of course the Tesla options demonstrates that.
 
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