Porsche 928S4 on Shell Helix Ultra ( No 3 )

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
sorry I forgot to post this UOA here. The layout is as sent to an International Porsche 928 owners group called RENNLIST

Starts:
Hi,
This is the third report on the oil in my car - taken at nine ( 9) months. The testing was commenced six months ago to confirm the oil change recommendations from Porsche namely - 20000kms or 12 months for "normal" use
This then is the third report, nine months after the oil and filter were changed

• Details:
  Car - MY89 - 928S4 Auto
  Speedo - 114848kms
  Oil - Shell Helix Ultra 15w-50 - SJ/CF, A3-96/B3-96 - fully synthetic
  Oil/filter change date - 10/17/02
  Distance since Oil/filter changed - 11333kms
  Oil used since fill - nil
  Date of this sample - 7/14/03
  Distance since last sample - 3017kms
  Use in period - 15% town,25% urban,60% hiway
  Avg speed in period - 69 km/h
  Fuel economy in period - 11.8ltr-100km
  Ambient in period - 26c high to 4c low
  Humidity in period - 98% highest
  OIl Condition - "use" factors;
  Note - last report figures below are shown thus: newest-last-oldest

• Viscosity - OK - 98-98-94
  Water - OK - 0.05%-0.01%-0.00%
  Soot Index - OK - 0.00-0.00-0.01
  TAN - OK - 4.6-2.6-3.2 - the Max allowed is 8.9
  
  Lab. Report Summary
  ExxonMobil's rating - "Normal"
  Status-Excellent for continued use
  Last Report - "Normal"
  Estimate of distance remaining to oil change - 3700kms ( 2300 miles ) 3 months
  Estimate of distance of oil life left to change -15000kms ( 9500 miles )
  Estimate of total distance to end of oil life - 27000kms ( 16700 miles )

• Elemental Analysis;
  
  Iron - 9-7-6
  Aluminium - 3-2-3
  Chromium - 1- Copper - 8-5-3
  Lead - 7-4-4
  Silicon - 5-11-22
  Sodium - 2-2-5

The oil has survived for 11333kms (7038 miles) and nine months very well. Porsche's recommendations are looking very very good and with a big margin too!!

Ends.

I hope it is of some value even if the oil is now superceded in OZ and not available in the USA

Regards
Doug Hillary
MY02 Subaru Outback 2.5 (Delvac 1 5w-40)
MY98 BMW Z3 2.8 (M1 0w-40)
MY89 Porsche 928S4 (Shell Helix Ultra 15w-50)

 

[Al]

Very impressive. I'm sure it gives you a very warm feeling knowing that your baby is well served with this oil

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Yes Al it does. The oil is a good one - I am not sure about the new SL formula 15w-50 Helix Ultra though

Regards

 

[quadrun1]

Thanks for sharing! What are you planning on running now? Ken4 from Singapore ran shell Helix Ultra 15W-50 in his car and also Castrol RS 10w-50 SYN, his results on the RS were spectacular!

 

[pscholte]

Doug, et al,

Some of you have heard my diatribe (or a variation thereof) before...why can't the

be presented the choices the rest of the world gets...our friends in

get choices we don't and they're on the same continent! Are US producers making it too tough for European suppliers to get into our market?...is it that Americans won't pay enough to bring some of the high-end formulas over? Let's face it, our speed limits are close enough to the speeds ACTUALLY DRIVEN in other places to warrant oil of the performance level represented by the Castrol RSs, the Motul 8100 E-Techs, the Total Quartz', the Elf Excelliums, the Aral XTronics and the Shell Helis Ultras. I'm not talking about existing US oils being bad...I'm talking about access. It really bugs me that we are limited to about one-half of the potential high-end choices out there.

On one hand I apologize for the soap box and on the other hand I don't!

[ August 29, 2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]

 

[Dan4510]

I would love to have a choice of more 10w-40 or 10-50 better than hydrocracked synthetics to run im my old mopars. Wanted to try delvac 1 5w-40 and there is none to be found in the town I live in. It can be ordered though with a lot of trouble..ARGH!! Have to order a case. Or I can have a 55gal drum.

Dan

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,

Thanks for your comments

Yes, the apparent lack of A3-98>/B3-98> compliant oils in the USA amazes me

Australia certainly does have a great range of oils readily available. FUCHS' German synthetics too are now being regularly promoted here - they are one of the oldest makers of synthetics. They push their 0w-20 oil which offers "...increased horsepower and engine protection..." "Based on test results on European and Australian high performance engines."

Our mix of vehicles - mainly Japanese ( Asian anyway )and European with very few American build cars probably determines the oil availability
Our GM-Holdens use the American V6 and V8 engines- the V6 engine is "Australianised" and the V8's are sold factory filled with M1 10w-30 I think

Delvac 1 which I use in my trucks ( I buy in bulk ), is simply almost "impossible" to buy retail here. I cannot understand why. All of my trucks carry a 5ltr container for emergencies and have done so for some years

I would like to run Delvac 1 in the Porsche but I still have stocks of Helix Ultra which I use in Utes ( light trucks ) and some older cars
In the Tropics where I live our summer temperatures are quite high too

Regards

 

[Last_Z]

Results
(ppm/%) Comment
Wear (no comment =normal)
Copper 2
Iron 2
Chromium 0
Lead 0
Aluminum 1
Silicon 3 Air filtration perfect
Tin 0


Iron - 9-7-6
Aluminium - 3-2-3
Chromium - 1- Copper - 8-5-3
Lead - 7-4-4
Silicon - 5-11-22
Sodium - 2-2-5


Ok guys, this are the 2 reports that are mentioned on this post. Both of these oils are 50W and both are used on cars which probably have "tight" clearances. Now, the question is:
What is wrong with this picture?

Nobody really raved about this two heavy weights even though these are probably the best reports we have seen on this board. We have been brain washed into the idea that thinner is better and protects better, but this clearly blows that idea to pieces. I'm very tempted to try M1 15W-50 on my Z next interval.
Rick

 

[sprintman]

Closer tolerances not 'tighter clearances'. There is a difference.

 

[Patman]

Rick, I'm very interested in seeing how 15w50 would do in an LS1. I've considered trying it out in my LT1 sometime too. I've been telling everyone it's too thick, but who knows for sure without seeing a UOA? We have very little UOAs on 50wt oils here.

 

[buster]

I'd like to see that myself. Is it true though that a 50wt oil is too thick for certain oil pumps in engines that call for a 30wt oil? I'd also like to see a mix of 15w-50 with 5w-30 in a LS1. We have no UOA's with a mix in a LS1.

 

[pscholte]

Originally posted by buster:
Is it true though that a 50wt oil is too thick for certain oil pumps in engines that call for a 30wt oil?

Buster,

Your question, plus comments in other threads on thick oil in cars "not designed for it," brings up a good point. So whats a Yank supposed to do when his job moves him to Europe and he has the opportunity to run that Firebird or Corvette or Mustang GT for extended periods on the Autobahn...use 5W30 and hope for the best...or just never take an American car over? Before you all say, "The 30wt will do fine crusing at 115 for 3 1/2 hours between Frankfurt and Berne," then tell me again why heavier weights are still in favor in Europe.

[ September 01, 2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
without getting "in too deep" I can provide you the following info.- and from an impeccable source.

The engine you talk of is sold here with M1 10w-30 as factory fill - and is popular - reponds well to M1 5w-50
This engine has had its problems in OZ one of which is high oil consumption.
With this simple oil change, consumption reduced about 90% with no technical issues arising
This testing is on-going both with a group of stock and some "enhanced" engines

Likewise - and from from the same source - a V8 Supercar team here dyno trialed a simple change from a race blend M1 15w-50 to an enhanced blend M1 0w-20 and picked up 10hp

I cannot provide UOAs but I can tell you that the information is impeccable, actual and recent - within the last few weeks

If I had one of these engines I know what it would be on real fast - M1 5w-50!

Regards

 

[Last_Z]

sprintman;
If I understand it correctly, both of the engines mentioned above have "close tolerances" and tight clearances". The first term simply means that the standard is a bit more rigid....in other words, once the part wears beyong .002, it is trash, even if it looks new.
The second term means that the space in between moving parts is much closer on this vehicles than say an LS1 engine.
So, what I said above still stands!

Pat and buster;
Against Mola's advice (uh oh!), I replaced the ST 10W-30/ARX mix with 1 qt of 15W-50, 350 ml of #132 and the rest of 10W-30. I'm hoping this will at least get close to a high 30W to low 40W. It's gonna take me a while before I analyze this mix though....I barely drive my car.

Pscholte;
I believe you when you talk about the speeds on the autobanh. I was there for more than 4 months and the normal speeds are incredible. We were given a VW Minivan TDI....normal speeds are 130 Km/h and above. I made it from Ramstein to Frankfurt in under 45 mins.....I had the needle stock at 200/210 Km/h. The poor van wouldn't go any faster

Rick

 

[JohnBrowning]

Well again I am not aware of any engine being specificly clearanced for thin oils. number one it takes years to bring an engine to market. So most engines on the road to day were designed 10 years ago or more with a few last minute technology leap frogs.

Thin oils have not been around very long. Definately not long enough for someone to base their entire design on it. Most of these so called tight clearance engines only run thin oil in the America. Why is it that these same engines in Europe or Asia can suddenly take thicker oils? I also love how no one and mean no one that claims an oil is too thick for a certin engine ever backs it up with bearing clearances numbers.

I will freely admit that my bias is toward the old school API/SAE temp viscosity chart. I think that oil should be picked based on temp. As such I normaly gravatate towards thicker oils in the warm months. I also have seen a few brave souls on this site take the thicker oil plunge and they have been rewarded with improvments in their wear numbers. Some think I am biased but I am at least open to trying thin oils. I of course will do a used oil analysis to see how well the oil protects. THe difference is that thin oil people are never willing to take the thick oil plunge!

 

[sbc350gearhead]

John.....I used to believe that anything under a 40 weight would be bad for your engine. I have developed a whole new way of thinking in the last few years. Now, I believe in using the lowest viscosity that will protect your engine under the conditions it is operating in. I don't think that engines are designed for thin oils, but I do believe that oils have come along way. I changed to synthetics about the same time I changed my mantra. A friend of mine is a ford mechanic. He told me that he has seen problems with certain ford engines with thick oils, due to the fact that ford's hydraulic lifters cannot bleed down fast enough for the thick oils. He said that he thinks it is a design flaw with ford's lifters and is not indicative of other manufacturers.

[ September 01, 2003, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: sbc350gearhead ]

 

[sprintman]

buster where did you get the oil pump thing re 50W oils? American muscle cars are everywhere in UK, Sweden, Germany etc and use whatever oils are available. I have what in NA was called a Mazda 626 GT and 5W30 or 10W30 specc'd I believe? Here 20W50 and I ran 25W70 Penrite Turbo (now called HPR40)for over 2yrs winter & summer just fine.

 

[Last_Z]

quote:

---

.....I ran 25W70 Penrite Turbo (now called HPR40)for over 2yrs winter & summer just fine.

---

Yikes! Condensed milk anyone?! What would be the "normal" use of such an oil?
Rick

 

[Rexman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Last_Z:
Nobody really raved about this two heavy weights even though these are probably the best reports we have seen on this board. We have been brain washed into the idea that thinner is better and protects better, but this clearly blows that idea to pieces.

---

On the face of it, these are fine reports, but before we all get carried away in a wild debate about thick vs. thin, there are a couple things that REALLY need to be mentioned here.

First, only 15% of the 7038 miles on the Shell are what we Americans would consider "stop-and-go" driving. The remaining 85% are easy country and highway miles which are VERY kind to the engine when it comes to wear.
Heck, a dino would look good with this kind of driving! The fact that Doug is running synthetic here is icing on the cake.

Second, Porsches, being the wonderfully over-engineered cars that they are, are famous for having very large oil capacities. The 928S as I recall holds around 9 quarts--that's a whopping 50% *more* oil than most cars of this type! That extra capacity is going to make these wear figures look 50% better than they would otherwise!

Sure, these are nice reports, but only part of the credit should go to the oil, IMO--the rest should be credited to Doug's easy driving style and to the automotive wizards in the Porsche engineering department.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Rexman - The oil test on my car started well before I joined or even knew about this board

I have my own views on the thick thin debate but this UOA exercise had nothing to do with that

After an extensive debate on OC intervals on RENNLIST I offered to do some testing at my cost as I am well practiced in UOA. The RENNLIST debate was on how often should oil really be changed in these cars - were the Porsche Handbook recommendations accurate and practical

Persons in various countries were changing M1 at 2000m, some annually, many changing mineral oils at 4000 to 7000m. This was promoted by servicing centres. Many of these people are out for a quick buck from emotional and unknowing persons

My question was - what about the recommendations made by the original Porsche Engineers? Were these guys knowledgeable or not. Did they do their sums. Their recommendations were'nt based on one style of driving. After having lived in Europe for many years and working for Caltex-Chevron, MB and VW, I know it was based on the expected use for their cars. It embraced all types and styles - from -25C in Munich to +40 in Spain. From hours at 200km/h to city cruising. Thats why they embrace thermo oil coolers ( heat exchangers ), large oil capacities and a mandatory secondary diesel rating on their oils

Thanks Rexman - you are on the ball - and the case. Your comments are great stuff

As to the thick - thin debate?, please read the comments under the German Castrol thread. I always use what I think is the very best "compromise" for me and my $000's in automotive iron

I run M1 0w-40 in my MY98 BMW 2.8, D1 5w-40 in my MY02 Subaru Outback 2.5, M1 0w-40 in a MY01 VW Golf.

And I use D1 5w-40 ( not the common mineral 15w-40 ) in my 12.7ltr trucks and I also use synthetic 75w-90 oils ( not the OZ recommended mineral 90w-140 )in the diffs. With the written approval of Eaton & Rockwell of course. They have covered many millions of kms without leaks and any trouble and only a few UOAs in the process

Regards
Doug Hillary