Please read that plug

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3,202
Location
Far North East Texas
[Eek!] OK, I'll try: "No gimmicks need apply." [Big Grin] Or maybe,"WRONG!!". Dunno what those are, but it seems the 3-ground-electrode design just wasn't makin' it in that engine.(What *are* those?!? [Confused] ) Are those missing a little ring that connects the tips of the 3 g.e.'s? I'm speaking of the plug that someone posted about recently. [I dont know] I stick with plain old Champion or NGK copper-cores in my car. No problems! [Cheers!]
 

moribundman

Thread starter
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23,591
FYI, it's an NGK nickel-plated copper core tri-electrode plug. That's the OEM plug for my Audi. Obviously the plug in the upper picture is in much worse shape. No parts are missing or have fallen off either plug. I know exactly why these plugs look the way they do. I just want to see which one of the resident specialists can tell me what's wrong. [Razz]
 
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9,773
Location
Central Coast, Calif.
ash deposits? maybe PCV or valve seal issues? for those that are not familiar with odd looking OEM plugs take a look at a NGK catalog, they make lots of strange plugs that are OE, especially for German cars. BMW has one with 3 grounds and a triangle connecting them.
 

JHZR2

Staff member
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45,938
Location
New Jersey
My E30 BMW 318i used the same plugs OEM. Oil-related deposits??? How much oil did the engine consume? My bigger question is whatkind of camera/lens did you use to get those great shots??? JMH
 
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39,805
Location
Pottstown, PA
Those "crusties" look nasty [Eek!] Some foreign agent in there. Any funky additives used? Reminds me of coolant in the combustion chamber type thing. Not the blackness ..just the crusties.
 

moribundman

Thread starter
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23,591
Funky additives? Uh, well, I'm using LC in the Red Line 5W-30 and FP in the gas. [Razz] Valve stem seals are shot, but the upper picture shows a plug whose ignition coil shorted out. One of the three dual coils shorted out due to rubbed-through insulatation a the wire (out of sight under the intake manifold) from the power output stage to the coils, and the two respective spark plugs look really nasty with severe crusting. I drove maybe two miles with the engine sputtering. The defective dual coil was cracked and arced to the intake manifold. The UOA showed no coolant or abnormal wear. Copper was a bit higher than previously. I know, the stem seals have to be replaced... PS: Regarding the camera question: it has adequate macro capabilities. It's a pretty crappy Fuji Finepix point&shoot. Haven't seen any cameras that take good pictures by themselves yet. [Wink]
 
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36,403
Location
ME
You bite your nails too huh? [Smile] Having just re-ringed a saturn, I know what oily crusty plugs look like. Are the rounded tips how they come from the box or do they wear that way? I rather like the plug design, gets the spark down to see some fuel/air mix rather directly. Probably works best in a 4-valve cylinder where it can be centrally located. To photograph spark plugs, lighting is everything, particularly getting it down between the shell and the insulator. Nicely done with good side lighting to get the deposits.
 

moribundman

Thread starter
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23,591
quote:
You bite your nails too huh?
Uh, no...
quote:
Having just re-ringed a saturn, I know what oily crusty plugs look like.
My condolences.
quote:
Are the rounded tips how they come from the box or do they wear that way? [QUOTE] They come that way. [QUOTE] I rather like the plug design, gets the spark down to see some fuel/air mix rather directly. Probably works best in a 4-valve cylinder where it can be centrally located.
The Audi 4 valve engine uses different plugs. This is for a 2v engine.
quote:
To photograph spark plugs, lighting is everything, particularly getting it down between the shell and the insulator. Nicely done with good side lighting to get the deposits.
North side!
 
Messages
670
Location
San Antonio,TX
Dry black soot is carbon build up caused by an over rich condition as is the case here. If the plug was wet and black, that would be indicative of oil fowling. p.s. mori did you have your nails done just for the shoot? [Big Grin]
 
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47,765
Location
Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Did you hold the plug in the lower pict with your hand? Steady! Some lower cost cameras have quantum differences in macro ability - but this is rarely mentioned in reviews, etc. Some of the digi's we have at work - are crap for macro. (One Sony and Canon) While another Sony is great, and my home Olympus is pretty great with a macro and 2X macro mode. I was gonna suggest a mechanical problem and not sparking consistently.
 
Messages
39,805
Location
Pottstown, PA
quote:
Originally posted by moribundman: Funky additives? Uh, well, I'm using LC in the Red Line 5W-30 and FP in the gas. [Razz]
I've seen slow migration on plugs as FP appears to not remove intake deposits "enmass" like more draconian agents. I would imagine, valve seal contributions excluded, that this would pass eventually ..unless intake deposit formation exceeded intake cleaning ability.
 
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3,845
"Valve stem seals are shot, but the upper picture shows a plug whose ignition coil shorted out. One of the three dual coils shorted out due to rubbed-through insulatation a the wire (out of sight under the intake manifold) from the power output stage to the coils, and the two respective spark plugs look really nasty with severe crusting. I drove maybe two miles with the engine sputtering. The defective dual coil was cracked and arced to the intake manifold. " Mori, did oil analysis help you with ID'ing the valve guide seal issue and or the coils issue ?
 

moribundman

Thread starter
Messages
23,591
quote:
Did you hold the plug in the lower pict with your hand? Steady!
Yes I did. I have a low resting heart beat, a steady hand and a smoothly operating trigger finger. [Wink]
quote:
Some lower cost cameras have quantum differences in macro ability - but this is rarely mentioned in reviews, etc. Some of the digi's we have at work - are crap for macro. (One Sony and Canon) While another Sony is great, and my home Olympus is pretty great with a macro and 2X macro mode.
The camera I used has the macro setting at the lens's wide end (28 mm equivalent). That's not what most people would want in a lens, and it's not ideal for what I used it here, but it's exactly what I usually need.
quote:
I was gonna suggest a mechanical problem and not sparking consistently.
I believe the sparking issue damaged two of the six spark plugs, and that's why two of them look so much worse than the other four. I suspect melted metal under the crusties. Because of the oil consumption issue, maybe I should use a low SAPS oil until I get around to replacing the valve stem seals?
 

Al

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19,225
Location
Elizabethtown, Pa
2nd one is running too hot. First lookes like carbon deposit. Perhaps carbon deposit caused higher compression and then pre-ignition and then too hot (lean preignition)
 

moribundman

Thread starter
Messages
23,591
quote:
Mori, did oil analysis help you with ID'ing the valve guide seal issue and or the coils issue ?
Terry, you interpreted my last UOA. You did confirm shot valve stem seals. I replaced the ignition coils immediately after they failed. That failure did affect some data, which you pointed out. After replacing the valve stem seals, I will again make use of your services. [Cheers!] It might take a while. I plan on replacing the head gaskets, too, so I'll have to take off the heads, and I'm not sure when I can get around to it.
 
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3,845
Wonderful, I like it when analysis saves money! In the meantime DO NOT use a oil that is hard for the CC to burn. i.e. RL or any other PAO,POE based oils. We want a chemistry in there that can burn off and do it without leaving tons of deposits. Maybe Bruce 381 or Molakule can give a better recommendation but a lower ash formula similar to a recip air craft oil is recommended. Little VII helps too, straight SAE30 of chevron supreme maybe? Continue to use LC as I have recommended before. FP in the gas as recommended. That will lower the cooked oil/add deposits you are viewing.
 
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