Pics 89,000 Mile LS1 Cylinder Bores

[Ryan00TJ]

Here is a pic of an 98 Trans Am with 89,500 miles on the motor. Runs great and I don't think he mentioned any oil burning. I'm swapping a set of ST II heads onto my LS1 this weekend and I will post some pics of my bores with only 16,000 miles on them.

 

[Patman]

Who's motor is this Ryan? Anyone I know?

 

[427Z06]

I believe this lends more credence to the theory that if an LS1/LS6 is manufactured correctly, it will last a good many miles.

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06: I believe this lends more credence to the theory that if an LS1/LS6 is manufactured correctly, it will last a good many miles.

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They are definitely awesome motors! A lot of people like to bad mouth them because they have a history of piston slap and oil consumption, but yet they've proven themselves to be very durable. I know a lot of people with high mileage LS1s that are still going strong.

 

[JohnBrowning]

You know I am the most vocal critic of these motors. Even I have gone on record say that they could be world class engines if GM fixed a few design isues, used better materials and actualy manufactured them properly! The Gen III block designs has a lot of potential. You can have all the potential in the world and never amount to a darn thing though! P.S. I doubt that this is how it looked when the heads were pulled of. It looks like some cleaning has been done. Are we sure no ridge reamer or emery cloth was used on this bore? [ May 13, 2004, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]

 

[Motorbike]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning: It looks like some cleaning has been done. Are we sure no ridge reamer or emery cloth was used on this bore?

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There is carbon up near the block deck . A reamer would have removed it and I would think it would take double the miles to get a ridge started with the light tension ring set used . The crosshatch at these miles looks typical of a light tension ring thin set with good oil change practices ,,,,,,,,,,, no bore polishing .

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning: You know I am the most vocal critic of these motors. Even I have gone on record say that they could be world class engines if GM fixed a few design isues, used better materials and actualy manufactured them properly!

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I still don't see why you hate them so much though. They make tons of power even bone stock, respond very well to mods, get very good gas mileage for the size of motor (I got 31MPG highway at 70mph in mine!) and last a very long time. Sure, the piston slap is an annoying sound, but honestly, it's not reducing the life of the engine. It's not like we're seeing these motors dying early deaths by any means. Have you ever driven one? It's a super smooth motor that pulls very hard to it's 6250rpm redline. I miss mine so much!

 

[RobZ71LM7]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman: I still don't see why you hate them so much though. They make tons of power even bone stock, respond very well to mods, get very good gas mileage for the size of motor (I got 31MPG highway at 70mph in mine!) and last a very long time. Sure, the piston slap is an annoying sound, but honestly, it's not reducing the life of the engine. It's not like we're seeing these motors dying early deaths by any means. Have you ever driven one? It's a super smooth motor that pulls very hard to it's 6250rpm redline. I miss mine so much! [/QB]

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It's called jealousy or maybe ignorance. If people want to hate GM and the engine let them. More for us. LS1

 

[JohnBrowning]

It is not the cross hatching, I am used to see good cross hatching on motors with 80,000 or more miles! It was the light carbon ring. IT looks like the ring has been nocked down some. The tops of the pistons also look like they have been cleaned but I can not tell with this particular angle! A close image dead on would be helpful.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Yes, I have driven plenty of F and Y bodies! I do not hame them. I think that most people that own them over hype the heck out of them though!! I expect the largest most powerful automotive company in the world to make the best!! I expect more from my fellow country men then anyone else in world should!! We used to be the best and I will not be happy until we are again!! You have never heard me knock them for power out put at all! They are anything but smooth though. Anyone that thinks a LS1 is refined needs to spend more time driveing a Lexus,AMG, or BMW with a V8.The Dodge 4.7V8 and Toyota 4.8V8 are also hands down more refined then the LS1. If they fixed the piston slap issue, oil consuption issue and fixed all potenial gasket leak prone areas I would be pleased. If they added variable valve timeing I would be even happier! My standards do not change if it is a $17,000 Camry or a $50,000 Vette. If it has squeaks and rattles early on, burns too much oil, has piston slap,needs a new distributor becaue it can not hold it's coolant LT1, has problems with intake manifold leaks etc..... then it fails in book. Their is no excuse for these things. They have had plenty of time to fix these issues but they have not. What does it mean when you know you have a problem and you choose not fix it? I think that we have seen that most GM V8 seem to wear more like a Toyota when they are custom machined and built with high quality aftermarket parts. THeir is alot to be said for a properly ballanced and blue printed engine!

 

[MB289]

JB, I also don't understand your thinking on the LS1...not trying to flame, but some of your ascertions are incorrect. First, the LS1 is a very smooth motor, and yes, I've driven many different cars over the years. Mine is smooth as silk. Sencond, what seal leaks are you refering to. Mine has none and I have not heard nor read anything about seal problems. Third, the LT1 and the LS1 are competely different engines. The only similarity between the two is the 4.40" bore centers. Otherwise the LS1 is a clean sheet engine design. Fourth, why would you want VVT timing? If you want increased performance, ok, but that just adds complexity to a relatively simple design. For everyday driving, performance and normal, the LS1 IMO does an excellent job. And mine gets 27mpg on the highway! However, JB, I must agree with you on the piston slap and oil consumption issues. There is no excuss for them. BTW, does anyone know if GM has fixed them yet. My oil sample from my 99 LS1 of RL 10w-30 with 5400 miles was sent yesterday to Blackstone and T. Dyson.

 

[MB289]

Ryan, thanks for the pictures. If you got more I'd like to see them.

 

[DJ]

I tore down my old L99(4.3L V8 small bore short stroke LT1 3 years in the Caprice only) at 110K I beat it hard and wasn't great about the oil changes not that I let them go but never stuck with any one brand or anything. It had crosshatch in all bores, I have the block yet if I did it out while cleaning I will take pics.

 

[JohnnyG]

John Browning's biases aside, this is what I have been trying to say for the last couple of years. The reason these engines, (and the Northstar John) use "some" oil is because of the aggressive crosshatch pattern intentionally put on the cylinder walls at the factory. This keeps an oil cusion between the rings and the cylinders, and results in almost NO wear. The bad things start to happen when the wrong engine oil is used, like a 0W-40 or something, with the high amounts of VII's, sticking the rings. Or the wrong amount of oil, etc. Manufacturing tolerances dictate that some variation of the depth of the honing should be expected, after all, some engines get new diamond hone stones and through the day, they wear smoother. This variation is to blame for some engine using "excessive" oil, all other factors aside, like leaks, etc. This obvious hone pattern is typical of not only this engine but many others of the GM design, including the Northstar at 100,000+ miles.

 

[buster]

GM makes some very durable engines, the LS1 for example. However, everything else is usually plastic shiite. My wimpy economy Corolla S is built like a little tank. Here is an example of repairs on my car vs. my wife's 2002 Focus. Corolla- NONE @ 158,000 miles. All routine maint. Focus- Rattles, windsheild wipers broke, door locks broke and the transmission has something wrong with it. 22,000 miles. Toyota/Honda still have it all over the domestics in terms of refinement and durability. There really isnt a question about it. Don't confuse Toyota and Honda with the other Jap brands either, those are a different species.

 

[Ryan00TJ]

Patman, Picked these pics up off LS1Tech. I will take alot of pics of my bores with only 16000 miles on the motor with eveything untouched. I'm right now at 399rwhp on the stock 241 LS1 castings. With these new Stage II heads I'm hoping for 30-40rwhp increase. The LS1 is a really amazing powerplant that is at the peak of OHV technology. What other V8 on the market can make 440+rwhp without going the forced induction route. I love hearing these 03 Cobra guys saying they make 450rwhp on 14lbs boost. I'll be able to say the same thing only with the last sentence being no boost all natural. BTW my last highway trip netted 27.5 mpg at 75mph.

 

[JohnBrowning]

I know they are different designs I have an LS6 about 100 feet from my office laying in pieces. Used to have an LT1 and LT4 as well. My point is that GM has a track record of doing things half arse! They get close to a good thing and then they just give up and call it good enough. Variable valve timing is not complicated. It has been diffacult though for GM to get it to work reliably on the Cadilac engines they have been playing with! Variable valve timeing does a lot of things for you. Fisrt it flattens the power band right out. Second it allows for more refined and stict fuel controls. Third it will clean up the emmission through more natural scavengeing. Fourth it can aid in engine refinement!! As an examble my little I4 Toyota has an almost flat power and torque output from 1000-6000 RPM's because of the 50 degrees of valve timeing timeing. They could make the engine smaller say 4.3 direct injection maintain close to the same power output even if slightly less and still produce the same 1/4 mile times and 60 ft time. This would be possable becasue the torque and power bands would be almost flat. Nothing like makeing the same or more HP with 30% less gas though with direct injection and VVT! The gasket problems are numerious in GM. They have a poorly designed intake manifold gasket mateing area. They have oil pickup tube o-ring problems. They seem to have oil pan gasket issues. THe LT1 has an isse with the front cover and the water pump gaskets. All F bodys seem to squek and rattle like crazy. THe Corvettes have weather stip issue and the ones with a torque tube have problems with cracking at the bellhouseing and at the rear diff were the torque tube connects. The ZF gear box has had more then it's fair share of problems with durability! None of the above things should be issues. The people that buy these vechiles deserve to have the best America can build! I do not belive that these represent the best GM can do!! I refuse to belive that GM can not build an engine like Toyota or Lexus! I will not let GM or Ford off the hook. I will continue to demand the best until they deliver!! I give credit were credit is due. I often praise the Buick 3.8 and the Dodge 3.7 V6 and 4.7 V8! I have praised the computer controls for the N. Star engines. I have praised GM's all to late decision to return to rear wheel drive platforms!I have praised Dodges return to rear wheel drive as well. I have even praised the Hemi. As for gas millage that is more an issue with the double over drive, rear R&P and driveing style. I suppose I could get 40-50 MPG with a 6th forward gear in my I4 Camry! As is I get about 30-32 MPG driveing like a made man. What I do not understand is why some people refuse to see the truth! The LS1 is not as refined as a Toyota,Lexus,Mercedes, or BMW V8. They have an awful reputation for piston slap and oil consuption. They have their share of gasket leaks and carbon issues. The fix's for the piston slap and oil consuption only seem to work for a short time. They use really old push rod design with a single camshaft and hydralic lifter. The materials used are not first rate either. These are supposed to be flagship engines that showcase the divisions technological know how just like the N.Star is for Cadilac! I guess it all comes down to standards. Some peoples are higher then others in some areas! It would be so darn simple to give the block a bit more deck heith so a real piston with some skirt could be run. Use the current cam shaft location to mount an idler for a new timeing chain set up for the single or double over head cam heads with VVTI. Give it a forged crank. Nitride the crank, cams and rings. Make all intake mateing surfaces verticle. Use as many flat cut o-rings with over laping lips on covers. Make sure all gaskets were made from modern florocarbon type materials. P.S. For the record I am quite happy with the LT1,LT4,LS1 and LS6 performance numbers! The vechiles that have been factory equped for with these engines have usualy provided great bang for the buck!!!

 

[Judd]

You are correct,,, they are not as smooth and as refined as a BMW,Lexus,or a Mercedes. Should it be???? Remember, these engines are in Camaro Z28s that could have been bought for as low 20 grand. I paid 26300 out the door for my Formula Firehawk. Please remind me of a car that was being built at that time that could run low 13s in the quarter mile, run 160 plus flat out and handles decently. Add the fact that it gets 20 plus MPG during average city driving and up around 30MPG during trips {averaging 70-90mph at that}. I looked at quite a few cars before I settled on my Firebird. I say settled because I would have liked to have had a BMW Z3 M Coupe,,, or a Porsche Boxster S,,, or a,,,,,, well,,, a, there ain't much else anywhere near my price range. Considering that those two cars were DERN NEAR DOUBLE THE PRICE,,, I thought different! Should I have bought a 32K$ Honda S2000? I looked at one, loved it till I test drove it. Fun in the mountains, absolutely no torque during regular driving. PLUS it cost more and low and dehold,,, gets about the same mileage! How bout the Subaru WRX STI,, or the Mitsubishi Evo??? BTW, those two cars were not out when I bought my car, I just threw them in for comparison sake. What kind of mileage do those 4 bangers get?? Bout the same. How much do they cost??? Will they be as reliable long term as my LS1? Maybe, maybe not considering that both have alot of extra "stuff" {all wheel drive and turbos}. Plus,,, there is that cost issue again. Plain and simple, 20-24k cars will have to cut costs somewhere. Since I like performance, I can put up with a few "low rent issues". BTW, I really don't think you would gain a whole lot more fuel mileage if you did have a double over drive, rear R&P and a more sedate driveing style. My Rio gets 34-37 MPG city driving {and yes I drive the pee out of it}, 40MPG or so on the hwy. reving like crazy above 75mph. I tried to raise my overall gear ratio so I found some skinny tall tires. That should have done about the same thing as adding a overdrive {at least on the highway}. Guess what, dern mileage actually stayed about the same on the highway and actually got worse in the city {wasn't that surprised there} . I don't think your I4 Camry would have enough butt to pull you down the highway at around 1600 RPM and do it effenciently,,,, as the LS1 seems to do. I do know that the LS1 has a reputation for piston slap {could be a result of those short skirt pistons,,, ya reckon?} and high oil consumption. My car has 40K miles and has neither problem. Uses less than 1 qrt per 3K miles on average. My car is not babied at all, it has somewhere around 250 quarter mile passes and 'pert near 200 AutoX passes on it, lots of play time in the mountains and more circles and burn outs than you could "shake a stick at". Know how many problems I've had?? One! I just broke my rear axle after a weekend of pulling 1.70-1.80 sixty foots. BTW, what are these intake leaks and oil pan leaks you are talking of? I've never really heard of any problems in those areas and I have alot of friends with LS1s and I'm on the LS1 forums all the time. Another BTW, I find it sorta weird that I hear about the piston slap and oil consumption problems with LS1s like every single LS1 ever made sounds like a diesel and uses 3 qrts per 1K miles. I have yet to actually meet someone who actually has those issues. Remember, these engines are in low priced high performance cars,,, don't you expect that alot of the drivers are going to be bit rougher than your average Miata driver. You are correct though, I guess it all comes down to standards. Some peoples are higher then others in some areas! Welp, sorry for the book there. Just had to rebuttel a bit.

 

[Kernel Potter]

But Judd your low standards allow you to put everyday SL PCMO in your car and not have to worry about it sludging after 3,000 miles - so you don't know about standards. You just have to listen to your engine have some piston slap while other 'high' standard engines like BMW M3s, V6 Toyotas and Lexus' smoothly and silently run until their connecting rods come blowing out the sides of their blocks around 35,000 miles. Get some standards Judd.

 

[Amkeer]

What motors sludge with 3000 mile oil changes? Last I remember it was owners in severe service catagory running dino oil to 7500 + miles in a motor with high head temps. I have had the vehicles described here including the LT1 as well as the LS1. The Z28 as well as the Camaro, 3 of them to be exact. I would never consider another other than a 67-72 Camaro. Add to them a 78 Trans Am which was alright and that makes 4. I will stick with my current 90% made in the USA Tacoma! Daily Drives: -2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner XtraCab, 2.7 Liter , Mobil1 Synthetic SS 5W-30. ODO 8700 Miles. -1995 Toyota 4-Runner 3.0 V6, Mobil1 Synthetic SS 10W-30. ODO 85500 Miles. http://community.webshots.com/user/amkeer