People who insist on using motorcycle brand oil

[BusyLittleShop]

BLS also stated that thicker oils cause more heat and cut power without improving engine or transmission life.

True... Blackstone's data states "We don’t find any
significant differences in wear, regardless of oil thickness."

The Importance of Viscosity?
Quote Blackstone Labs

The viscosity, or thickness of the oil, is not nearly as important
as many people think. Oil retains its nature no matter what thickness
it is.Think about this: automakers are continually recommending
lighter multi-grade oil in new engines. The reason is increased
efficiency. It takes power to pump oil through an engine, and the
lighter the oil, the less power required to pump it. The oil’s ability
to act like a solid and protect parts is not related to its thickness.
If that doesn’t sound quite right, consider this: The gears in a
heavy duty Allison automatic transmission are doing the same work as
the same machine equipped with an Eaton manual transmission. Due to
the hydraulics of the automatic, it runs on a 10W automatic
transmission oil.But the manual transmission uses a very thick
(sometimes up to 90W)gear lube oil. The gears of both types of
transmissions will have a similar life span. We don’t find any
significant differences in wear, regardless of oil thickness.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

There are plenty of sophisticated studies and SAE papers that show that higher viscosity oil gives moving parts more separation, and therefore less rubbing and wear.

Blackstones real world test data shows our oil serves as a "wall" when it is constantly flowing between plain bearings parts
keeping them from touching... the more flow the better the separation... higher viscosity oil equals less flow...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Speaking of oil temperatures ... Harleys run pretty hot oil temperatures, and you keep talking about oil getting thicker with use,

Zee can't explain how DrDave's Harley's showed significant
reduction in wear metals going from 40 grade to a 30 grade...

Quote BITOG DrDave
My old Harley really liked 10w-30 Amsoil. These was a significant
reduction in wear metals going from 15-40 to 10-30. There were no
consumption issues. It certainly started easier. By easier I mean it
spun over much faster. The motor seemed quieter, and Harley's need all
the help they can get in that department.6

 

[ZeeOSix]

Blackstones real world test data shows our oil serves as a "wall" when it is constantly flowing between plain bearings parts
keeping them from touching... the more flow the better the separation... higher viscosity oil equals less flow...

... bolded part ^^^. That "wall" is the MOFT. Based on that logic, then 0W-8 should really protect engine parts from contacting. Should try it sometime.

Have you ever studied tribology? ... or positive displacement oil pumps? Do you ever read any other forums besides this one - like the PCMO forum. You should really read up on this stuff sometime.

Actually, it's really the higher the HTHS viscosity the better the parts separation. And HTHS goes up with with increasing viscosity except in some rare oil formulations. Here are some graphs to ponder ... way more scientific than Blackstone UOAs (which are based on uncontrolled customer collection control at the best) and their lack of tribology fundamentals (ref Post #121).

Relative bearing wear as a function of HTHS viscosity (ie, due to different oil viscosity).

MOFT is greater when HTHS viscosity is greater.

Note that MOFT, which determines how much moving parts are separated, increases with higher viscosity and also increases with RPM. Note - don't "lug" an engine at low RPM when running thin oils. Also note that thicker oil makes the bearing flow slightly less oil volume and also heat up more (from more friction), but the fact is the MOFT is still higher and therefore gives more bearing separation and ensures better wear protection. I think this is something most people don't realize.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Zee can't explain how DrDave's Harley's showed significant
reduction in wear metals going from 40 grade to a 30 grade...

Quote BITOG DrDave
My old Harley really liked 10w-30 Amsoil. These was a significant
reduction in wear metals going from 15-40 to 10-30. There were no
consumption issues. It certainly started easier. By easier I mean it
spun over much faster. The motor seemed quieter, and Harley's need all
the help they can get in that department.6

How about a link to the UOAs so we can see the "significant reduction in wear". Comparing just two UOAs doesn't prove much, especially if the OCIs and conditions of use were significantly different. It's also possible that the 10W-30 was a thick 30 with a pretty high HTHS, and the 15W-40 was a thin 40 that sheared badly and had a relatively low HTHS for a 40. Lots of variables to consider when looking at UOAs. And of course it's going to cold start easier on colder days with the 10W vs 15W.

 

[ad244]

Liquimoly has no moly so cost effective speaking you're better off with a 100% synthetic auto oil...

Not the oil I use.

 

[4WD]

If it helps them sleep better at night, why not? Can't put a price on a good night's sleep.

Yes, My Pillow down to $29.95 now !

 

[Bonz]

Not the oil I use.

Couldn't be the oil any of us use as it's from 2014... Even though it does get across the point they didn't use moly back then and probably still don't.

 

[Bonz]

Yes, My Pillow down to $29.95 now !

Oh heck yes, thanks for the tip!

 

[Merek]

I used Kawasaki's Conventional oil when I was breaking in my Ninja 650 but mainly for warranty reasons and wanted to use a conventional for break in, I've read mixed reviews on breaking it in with synthetic being too slippery and didn't want to take a chance of the rings not seating properly and there's usually two schools of thought, either break it in hard where you ride it like you stole it or break it in with how you will ride the bike. I can't remember exactly when but did the first change around 50-100 miles and then the 600 mile service which I'm sure they just used conventional.

When using the Kawasaki oil it had notchy shifting and sometimes it would get hung up in between gears mainly where you have to stop fast but the bike was still being broken in so the next change after that service I switched to Castrol Actevo which is a syn-blend which did seem to help but still had the problem of getting stuck between the gears. I eventually switched again to Valvoline Full Synthetic, it didn't have many miles from the last change so I reused the filter but the bike now has just over 5k miles and I believe they call for 7500 mile changes, I've changed the filter at least 3-4 times already and plan to hit 10k before the next change where I'll do both. It now shifts like butter and when downshifting I try to pay more attention on which gear I'm in and the speed I'm at which seems to help but so far I haven't experienced that other issue. I really just need to get out there and ride more, my riding buddy is always going camping but when he's available we'll usually head out on the open road somewhere.

As far as conventional goes the Honda GN4 is really some of the best you can get and I would have no issue running that in anything of mine.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

I've read mixed reviews on breaking it in with synthetic being too slippery

Understanding synthetics means more refining to remove less desirable
elements from crude until what’s left is mostly higher-performing
molecular structures. Waxy stuff had to go because it made oil congeal
at winter temperatures. Aromatics had to go because they lost
viscosity too rapidly when hot. Unsaturates had to go because they
were vulnerable to heat-driven gumming and sludging. And so on.

What is 100% true for all the synthetics are uniform sized molecules
that don't exists naturally... so armed with that knowledge you can
see synthetic pose no barrier to engine piston to ring break in...

 

[bonjo]

so can anyone explain why my water temp drops 2 or more deg C when I use 10w50 instead of 10w40 and there is also less oil used by the engine???

 

[Bonz]

Fairly simple explanation, oil 101... 10w50 is thicker than a 10w40 at operating temps all else equal and therefore less potential for oil consumption.

I have found 20w50 in my bike tends to send engine temps higher sooner under the same stop and go, slow uphill in traffic at high elevation conditions, etc as a 10w40. The temperature doesn't get any higher it just goes up more quickly until the fan kicks on. I attribute that to the slightly thicker oil not carrying as much heat into the sump and therefore the cooling system has to handle the load.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Fairly simple explanation, oil 101... 10w50 is thicker than a 10w40 at operating temps all else equal and therefore less potential for oil consumption.

I have found 20w50 in my bike tends to send engine temps higher sooner under the same stop and go, slow uphill in traffic at high elevation conditions, etc as a 10w40. The temperature doesn't get any higher it just goes up more quickly until the fan kicks on. I attribute that to the slightly thicker oil not carrying as much heat into the sump and therefore the cooling system has to handle the load.

More heat is generated ftom shearing thicker oil between moving parts and inside bearings. It's not really a matter of thicker oil not absorbing or carrying any more or less heat.

 

[Bonz]

Thanks Zee, hadn't heard it described that way before.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Bonz ... this table shows how different oil viscosity changes the shearing heat (the frictional power loss) and the MOFT in journal bearings at two different RPM. Thicker oil has more shear heat generation but generates more MOFT, and RPM is a huge factor too. Going from 2500 to 7500 RPM generates about 9-10 times more shearing heat in the journal bearings. Oil will heat up way faster (and run hotter) at higher RPM than at idle or lower RPM, regardless of the viscosity.

 

[bonjo]

my question describes the opposite: the engine runs cooler on xxw-50 compared to xxw-40.

also in slow traffic, the temperature rise is slower with the 50.

any reason behind this?

 

[Bonz]

Bonz ... this table shows how different oil viscosity changes the shearing heat (the frictional power loss) and the MOFT in journal bearings at two different RPM. Thicker oil has more shear heat generation but generates more MOFT, and RPM is a huge factor too. Going from 2500 to 7500 RPM generates about 9-10 times more shearing heat in the journal bearings. Oil will heat up way faster (and run hotter) at higher RPM than at idle or lower RPM, regardless of the viscosity.

View attachment 67081

Yes, I had seen the chart last time when it was posted. Very good information. Makes sense why my engine gets warmer quicker with 20w50.

my question describes the opposite: the engine runs cooler on xxw-50 compared to xxw-40.

also in slow traffic, the temperature rise is slower with the 50.

any reason behind this?

Yes, I saw that. First part of my post shares why it would use less oil with the heavier weight, which is what I understood you to be saying. Then with respect to the post above, sharing my experience (opposite of yours) with a heavier weight oil with respect temperature. I cannot offer an explanation as it is contrary to what I understand to be the case from others and my experience.

 

[ZeeOSix]

my question describes the opposite: the engine runs cooler on xxw-50 compared to xxw-40.

also in slow traffic, the temperature rise is slower with the 50.

any reason behind this?

Maybe the xxW-50 sheared down thinner than what the xxW-40 was.

 

[Bonz]

Maybe the xxW-50 sheared down thinner than what the xxW-40 was.

That's a supremely logical observation.