People who insist on using motorcycle brand oil

[Ride_Red]

Human perception about how shift quality degrades can be fooled as it happens slowly over time. BUT... When that old oil is replaced with new oil, there can be a definite and noticeable difference.

When I tried Rotella T6 5W-40, it seemed to shift just fine and smooth at first. Around 1500 miles, I noticed that the shifting was getting pretty notchy and clunky. I drained the Rotella and put fresh Mobil 1 4T 10W-40 in and WOW what a difference! It was like night and day.

Now, when using quality oils, I do not notice much of a difference when I change the oil. I believe this is due to the oil holding up better over the oil change interval and not degrading much.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Human perception about how shift quality degrades can be fooled as it happens slowly over time.

True... Human perception is easily fooled because it refers to judgment shaped by personal opinions and feelings
instead of actual outside influences...

 

[02SE]

When just changing the oil and nothing else changes the shifting from notchy, to slick as can be, it's not just "opinions" or "feelings". Unless one is just completely out of touch with how their Motorcycle operates.

Which is possible. I recall following a woman down the road who had a flat tire, The flat tire was smoking, and causing the car to bounce and shake violently, etc. She pulled into the same parking lot I did, and I offered to change the tire to the spare if she had one.

She had NO IDEA the tire was even flat, or that there was any kind of problem...

So those who are completely out of touch with their car or bike, as the case may be, do exist...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

So those who are completely out of touch with their car or bike, as the case may be, do exist...

I'm so in tune with Mr.RC45 that I know the instant he stops listening and starts sending telepathic messages to me to go faster...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Yet if Mr RC45 starts shifting like garbage or the engine develops a bad misfire it's all in your head.

 

[Kawiguy454]

Ive helped more than a few other riders with oil changes over the years and replacing with M1 15-50. Usually they gasp at how smooth the tranny performs after. Not that bike oils are bad just cannot tell theyre necessarily better. I looked up the sheet on M1 15-50 and the cycle specific M1 15-40 and the add pack has 1200ppm ZDDP for both. Either of the two the trans becomes notchy after about 4-4.5k mi. Seems like its the same stuff?

the M1 cycle oil is $11/qt and the car oil is less than $5/qt

 

[ad244]

Ive helped more than a few other riders with oil changes over the years and replacing with M1 15-50. Usually they gasp at how smooth the tranny performs after. Not that bike oils are bad just cannot tell theyre necessarily better. I looked up the sheet on M1 15-50 and the cycle specific M1 15-40 and the add pack has 1200ppm ZDDP for both. Either of the two the trans becomes notchy after about 4-4.5k mi. Seems like its the same stuff?

the M1 cycle oil is $11/qt and the car oil is less than $5/qt

Alot of the air cooled BMW boxer guys swear by the stuff. I honestly would use it without fear even in a wet clutch bike.

For my KTM, I stick with MA2 Liquimoly and change it every 5,000 miles. Not saying this is a cost effective measure at all but its its every 9 months or so so its not going to break the bank.

 

[02SE]

I never answered the OP question.

I've used a variety of oils in shared sump bikes, some M/C specific, some not. I can think of several M/C specific oils which exhibited poor shifting after relatively few miles. This is mostly in high-powered sportbikes, that get ridden as intended.

I choose oil based solely on how they perform or don't. Not whether the bottle has a picture of a Motorcycle on it.

For the best oils as far as maintaining shift quality are concerned, just IME, are Motul 300V 4T, and Redline M/C oil.

If an HDEO or any other oil satisfies someone else, more power to them.

YMMV.

 

[Bonz]

M1 15w50 did ok for me in the ZRX 1200 (fall 2014). 71.4 sus vis after 4,090 miles and a 400 flashpoint. My last analysis (fall 2020) with M1 10w40 4T was 72.4 sus vis after 5,345 miles with a 420 flashpoint. Sitting at 4,600 miles on this years fill of 10w40 4T so analysis will be coming when I make the oil change this fall.

Can't say the 15w50 fell off in shift quality, it's been a while since I used it however in my use it had fallen off a full grade in viscosity in quite a bit fewer miles. The slightly lower flashpoint could be part of that, but a 15w50 shouldn't be more shear prone than a 10w40, maybe similar but not more so based on what I understand about viscosity spreads if all else is the same with respect to base oil, etc.

In any case, M1 15w50 is a good oil and it is less expensive than 10w40 4T at regular price. I just prefer the 10w40 4T if for nothing other than it stays in grade, despite 15w50 at 4,090 miles being basically the same viscosity as 4T at 5,345 miles.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

For my KTM, I stick with MA2 Liquimoly and change it every 5,000 miles. Not saying this is a cost effective measure at all but its its every 9 months or so so its not going to break the bank.

Liquimoly has no moly so cost effective speaking you're better off with a 100% synthetic auto oil...

 

[userfriendly]

Do you know and are you tuned into your motorcycle's operating behavior? If something noticably changes from a known experienced operational baseline, is it a real or falsly imagined perception on your part?

I think that BLS is just having a little fun because very few riders know how to shift gears on a motorcycle.
Try this next time you are riding. Back off the throttle a little to create an unloaded condition and shift without using the clutch.
The faster the shift the better. The clutch does not separate or connect the engine to the transmission like a car or truck, but the transmission
to the final drive.
When the engine is not running and the bike is in gear, notice that you can rock it back and forth without the transmission stopping the bike.
When riding you can find that back-lash with the throttle. The transmission is unloaded and if you shift at that instant, the quality of shift doesn't change during the normal oil drain interval.
BLS also stated that thicker oils cause more heat and cut power without improving engine or transmission life.
Heat is the number one enemy of viscosity. Cause more heat with thicker oil and increase the viscosity requirement of the engine and
transmission at the same time.
When the engine shares oil with the transmission, heat is generated by fluid friction in the transmission as well as from the engine.
Mineral and PAO base oils act about the same under high loads. How viscosity index improvers act under heavy gear loading is another story.

VIIs shear very quickly in applications they were not intended for. For that reason, I perfer SAE 30 VS 10W40. The thicker base oil viscosity
(BOV) is much higher with the SAE 30 and therefore will tolerate higher loads and not shear down a grade or two in normal use.

I often refer to Cat TO-4 or TO-4M synthetic (M for multi-grade) as the cat's meow for shared engine/transmission applications.
Shear stable, clutch compatable and somewhat expensive in 5 gallon pails and drums only.
The add-pack is friction enhanced for the clutch, and gear traction reduced for the transmission.
In a bike, keep the tranny happy and the engine will be happy too.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The clutch does not separate or connect the engine to the transmission like a car or truck, but the transmission to the final drive.

Don't know what bike you're talking about, but every bike I've worked on, the clutch does connect the engine crankshaft to the transmission input shaft. The transmission input shaft drives the counter/output shaft through the gears, and then drives the front sprocket and chain to the rear wheel.

The outside basket of the clutch is driven by the crankshaft, and the inner hub of the clutch drives the transmission input shaft. The clutch plates engage or disengade the engine crankshaft (clutch outer basket) to the transmission input shaft (clutch inner hub).

When the engine is not running and the bike is in gear, notice that you can rock it back and forth without the transmission stopping the bike.

You're just describing the slop in the transmission gear dogs engagement, and the bike will stop once the slop is taken up. The bike might move a few inches fore and aft before stopping.

Don't know what the point is, but I have been into bike mechanics for 45 years (and worked in Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki shops in my younger days), and have had many engines and transmissions ripped totally apart.

 

[FowVay]

A constant mesh sequential shift transmission as is found on a typical motorcycle has far more "lash" in the driveline than is experienced with a typical sliding gear transmission. That is why there seems to be such excessive slop in the driveline.

I ride Kawasaki brand and the first gear engagement on these things is experienced with a huge jerk and loud bang as it engages the gear dog. It sounds awful but it's just the way the thing is designed. I will say that changing oil brands to Klotz motorcycle techniplate 10W-40 has made a huge difference in the feel of the transmission. I've never had this nice of a shift quality on any bike that I now have on the 14R with Klotz in the gearbox.

 

[userfriendly]

Don't know what bike you're talking about, but every bike I've worked on, the clutch does connect the engine crankshaft to the transmission input shaft. The transmission input shaft drives the counter/output shaft through the gears, and then drives the front sprocket and chain to the rear wheel.

The outside basket of the clutch is driven by the crankshaft, and the inner hub of the clutch drives the transmission input shaft. The clutch plates engage or disengade the engine crankshaft (clutch outer basket) to the transmission input shaft (clutch inner hub).


You're just describing the slop in the transmission gear dogs engagement, and the bike will stop once the slop is taken up. The bike might move a few inches fore and aft before stopping.

Don't know what the point is, but I have been into bike mechanics for 45 years (and worked in Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki shops in my younger days), and have had many engines and transmissions ripped totally apart.

You might like a quick shifter with auto blip for down shifts.

 

[02SE]

You might like a quick shifter with auto blip for down shifts.

We bave 4 sportbikes with that capability from the factory. The 5th has an aftermarket quickshifter for upshifts only.

 

[alarmguy]

Ive helped more than a few other riders with oil changes over the years and replacing with M1 15-50. Usually they gasp at how smooth the tranny performs after. Not that bike oils are bad just cannot tell theyre necessarily better. I looked up the sheet on M1 15-50 and the cycle specific M1 15-40 and the add pack has 1200ppm ZDDP for both. Either of the two the trans becomes notchy after about 4-4.5k mi. Seems like its the same stuff?

the M1 cycle oil is $11/qt and the car oil is less than $5/qt

Yeah, I think for anyone looking for a synthetic M1 15/50 would be a good choice to try out. I doubt it will do its magic in a shared sump by holding its viscosity as good as M1 motorcycle oil (or Amsoil) but worth a try to see if it works for you and if your using a different brand of oil all together, I think the m1 15/50 is a slam dunk to try. M1 (and Amsoil) motorcycle oil thickens up as it is used maintaining shift quality and viscosity, where this doesnt work as well is in NON shared sump bikes, at change time you actually drain thicker oil then what when in.

I just posted last year a trial run of M1 in my Harley. It sheared the same as my favorite Mystik JT8 but did have lower wear numbers, not by much but it was certainly lower, even with the lower OCI so pretty safe to say the M1 sheared as much and more as the JT8 semi.

What I cant say is if the M1 would have sheared even more if I didnt change it so soon.
With that said, even with the lower wear, I wasnt as comfy running it vs the semi syn JT8 15/50 for one reason, once in a while I would get random noise from the engine with it, more or less the engine always sounded less quiet and I run in some hot weather.

Anyway, the M1 15/50 was just a test and certainly would think trying it out isnt a bad idea more so if you have a engine designed for a 10/40 oil. My Road King requires a 20/50 and the M1 despite lower wear made more noise over the Semi, it also sheared the same or more then the semi JT8

Here is the Blackstone Report. (all previous UOA's were Mystik JT8 )

_____

 

[skyactiv]

The last time I spotted Honda GN4 at a dealer. It was priced about the same as car oil.

 

[Ride_Red]

You can get Honda GN4 for a decent price. It is good oil and many Hondas go for a hundred thousand miles on it. I've used it and it works just fine. It may not be 'The Best', but it is certainly serviceable oil.

It's funny reading the discussion of 15W-50. I run 10W-30 in one of my bikes and never think twice about it. It's a small 670cc water cooled parallel twin and not a big V-Twin, so this discussion is interesting to me but not applicable to my bikes. I have 6000 miles on my current oil fill of Castrol ActEvo and shifting is still great, oil is full and color is just starting to darken a bit. Honda recommends 8000 mile OCI.

 

[sk_pete]

Liquimoly has no moly

whoa! that escalated so quickly

 

[ZeeOSix]

BLS also stated that thicker oils cause more heat and cut power without improving engine or transmission life.

With no real data to prove it except his quote cut & paste from Blackstone. There are plenty of sophisticated studies and SAE papers that show that higher viscosity oil gives moving parts more separation, and therefore less rubbing and wear. AF/AW additives are a big factor for parts that are in mixed or boundary lubrication terratory, but viscosity still helps keep the rubbing factor down. Really need both to get the most wear protection from oil.

Heat is the number one enemy of viscosity. Cause more heat with thicker oil and increase the viscosity requirement of the engine and
transmission at the same time.

Manufacturers always recommend higher viscosity in applications where the oil temperature is running hotter. Going thinner when things get hotter isn't going to turn out well if the MOFT gets too small to adequately keep moving parts separated.

Speaking of oil temperatures ... Harleys run pretty hot oil temperatures, and you keep talking about oil getting thicker with use, so if you are seeing that with your Harley it's probably due to the 275F oil temperature causing some oil bake-off (Noack factor) causing it to thicken. I don't think water cooled motorcycle engines thicken the oil like that, and seems all the UOAs on water cooled bikes shows viscosity loss due to shearing. If an oil is thickening from heat bake-off and also being sheared at the same time then, it may look like the oil didn't change viscosity much over the OCI.

When the engine shares oil with the transmission, heat is generated by fluid friction in the transmission as well as from the engine.
Mineral and PAO base oils act about the same under high loads. How viscosity index improvers act under heavy gear loading is another story.

I think in a shared sump engine the majority of the heat is still from engine combustion, but yes the transmission friction will add some heat. On a water cooled bike, it's not going to make much difference but on an air-cooled bike with no air-to-oil cooler it's more of an impact to over-all oil temperature.