Pennzoil Platinum 0w20 SP noisier than SN?

Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Messages
77
Location
Colorado
Recently changed the oil in wife's 2012 V6 Honda Odyssey minivan with Pennzoil Platinum 0w20 SP. Yesterday when she was pulling in garage the engine is louder than the previous PP 0w20 SN+. Has anyone else engine been noisier (valvetrain) on the new SP formula?. I've only one 5 quart jug of PP SP left on the shelve after that was planning to move to Valvoline EP 0w20 SP that I have stashed.
 
If anything my last oil change has been quieter and that was at the start of SP. I seriously doubt a change in API certification would do that.

I would give the engine bay a good look over. Check for something loose like the engine cover for example.
 
I think the SP version has a lot less moly (via analyses). Wonder if the higher moly earlier version made for a "quieter" oil per se?
 
I always wonder how people can remember exactly what an oil sounded like 5-10K miles ago prior to the change since this in my mind is the only reasonable comparison. I too think that any oil sounds quieter when it’s brand new than the old oil sounded in the engine.

But then again “sound” is not one of my criteria for oil choice so maybe that’s just me.
 
Recently changed the oil in wife's 2012 V6 Honda Odyssey minivan with Pennzoil Platinum 0w20 SP. Yesterday when she was pulling in garage the engine is louder than the previous PP 0w20 SN+. Has anyone else engine been noisier (valvetrain) on the new SP formula?. I've only one 5 quart jug of PP SP left on the shelve after that was planning to move to Valvoline EP 0w20 SP that I have stashed.

Have you ever used a Sound Pressure Level (SPL) meter to measure the dB sound volume? It would be a good idea to use one and to learn if what your at with this oil and others.

Here is why I say this, my wife’s 2013 Acura has the same engine - J Series and I was convinced the engine was louder on PP oil, vs M1. I used an SPL meter to test valve train noise. Here is what I found…The dB or noise level was 86.6 with M1 and 86 dB with PP. The human ear can’t tell the difference between these volumes but I was convinced prior to the test there was a valve train noise difference. Hopefully this will help and best of luck with the noise.
 

Attachments

  • AABA57AD-1810-41C7-ADCC-94CA021DAFA4.jpeg
    AABA57AD-1810-41C7-ADCC-94CA021DAFA4.jpeg
    56 KB · Views: 29
Here is a screen shot from the PQIA in the logic of bringing down calcium and raising magnesium concentrations for SN plus and SP motor oils. Derive what you like from that trend. ;)

263D0856-EE8D-454B-A28F-C59C4B6A7EC6.png
 
Last edited:
Recently changed the oil in wife's 2012 V6 Honda Odyssey minivan with Pennzoil Platinum 0w20 SP. Yesterday when she was pulling in garage the engine is louder than the previous PP 0w20 SN+. Has anyone else engine been noisier (valvetrain) on the new SP formula?. I've only one 5 quart jug of PP SP left on the shelve after that was planning to move to Valvoline EP 0w20 SP that I have stashed.
That sounds correct. API SP versions are a lot thinner than SN versions because SP emphasizes fuel economy over engine wear. By thinner, I mean they use a thinner base oil and more VII. Base-oil viscosity (HTFS) is what matters in the valvetrain and timing chain, not the kinematic viscosity (KV) or HTHS.

These are the base-oil viscosities (HTFS):

PP 0W-20 SN: 2.2 cP
PP 0W-20 SP: 2.0 cP

PP 5W-30 SN: 2.5 cP
PP 5W-30 SP: 2.2 cP

So, the new PP 5W-30 is as thin as the old PP 0W-20.

Estimated base-oil viscosity (HTFS) and VII content of selected oils
 
My 2002 Acura TL-S W/250K is absolutely louder with PP-SN than it was with Penzoil Gold Dex1, SN, both were 0-20W, I have a huge stash of PP 0-20. Once the motor warms up just a little it sounds fine. This is only when its 25 degree's or less. Your engine is a variation of my 20 year old J32A2, you probably have about a J35A7. You have VCM, I do not on this car, but I do have another J30A with VCM, and it sounds fine on PP SN.

I would suggest you ignore it completely.
 
That sounds correct. API SP versions are a lot thinner than SN versions because SP emphasizes fuel economy over engine wear. By thinner, I mean they use a thinner base oil and more VII. Base-oil viscosity (HTFS) is what matters in the valvetrain and timing chain, not the kinematic viscosity (KV) or HTHS.

These are the base-oil viscosities (HTFS):

PP 0W-20 SN: 2.2 cP
PP 0W-20 SP: 2.0 cP

PP 5W-30 SN: 2.5 cP
PP 5W-30 SP: 2.2 cP

So, the new PP 5W-30 is as thin as the old PP 0W-20.

Estimated base-oil viscosity (HTFS) and VII content of selected oils
You should update M1 EP 0w-20, it's KV40 is now 55cSt and VI has dropped to 131.
 
You should update M1 EP 0w-20, it's KV40 is now 55cSt and VI has dropped to 131.
Done.

If the datasheet is correct, M1 EP 0W-20 SP is now a SAE 20 monograde, with no VII. It could be a typo. Could you email Mobil 1 about it to have KV40 verified? Could you also look at the SP bottle to see if the four-digit formulation number (revision number (RN)) has changed? The old number was 5888.


Estimated base-oil viscosity (HTFS) and VII content of selected oils
 
Done.

If the datasheet is correct, M1 EP 0W-20 SP is now a SAE 20 monograde, with no VII. It could be a typo. Could you email Mobil 1 about it to have KV40 verified? Could you also look at the SP bottle to see if the four-digit formulation number (revision number (RN)) has changed? The old number was 5888.


Estimated base-oil viscosity (HTFS) and VII content of selected oils
Yes, I made a whole thread on my concluding the same thing recently, that it was basically a monograde now:


RN on my SP bottles is still 5888, not sure when they updated the PDS.

I'll e-mail Mobil and ask.
 
My 2002 Acura TL-S W/250K is absolutely louder with PP-SN than it was with Penzoil Gold Dex1, SN, both were 0-20W, I have a huge stash of PP 0-20. Once the motor warms up just a little it sounds fine. This is only when its 25 degree's or less. Your engine is a variation of my 20 year old J32A2, you probably have about a J35A7. You have VCM, I do not on this car, but I do have another J30A with VCM, and it sounds fine on PP SN.

I would suggest you ignore it completely.
His would be a J35Z8 since it’s a pre-2018 odyssey.
 
Yes, I made a whole thread on my concluding the same thing recently, that it was basically a monograde now:


RN on my SP bottles is still 5888, not sure when they updated the PDS.

I'll e-mail Mobil and ask.
No, it's an erroneous datasheet, where they mistyped KV40. My calculator is very good at catching datasheet errors. It's estimating the base-oil KV400 to be 8.6 cSt. The DDI pack increases the KV, but even then, you're looking at around 8 cSt. There is no way you can have a 0W oil with an 8 cSt base oil, even if you use PAO. This is also verified by the four-digit RN in the date stamp having remained the same. The SN, SN PLUS, and SP versions must be identical.
 
No, it's an erroneous datasheet, where they mistyped KV40. My calculator is very good at catching datasheet errors. It's estimating the base-oil KV400 to be 8.6 cSt. The DDI pack increases the KV, but even then, you're looking at around 8 cSt. There is no way you can have a 0W oil with an 8 cSt base oil, even if you use PAO. This is also verified by the four-digit RN in the date stamp having remained the same. The SN, SN PLUS, and SP versions must be identical.
Well, we'll know for sure once Mobil gets back to us. I can't see why they'd change that figure unless it actually changed, they wouldn't need to touch it to adjust for SP.

On the low VII thing, Mobil has an extremely low VII (2.6%) 0w-20 in one of their blending guide examples:
Screen Shot 2018-05-07 at 6.07.34 PM.jpg


Which I calculated as having a BOV KV100 of 5.38cSt based on the properties of SpectraSyn 6 and 4 (5.8cSt, 4.1cSt) and Esterex NP343 (4.3cSt) using the Widman calc. Interesting how, despite how close that oil is to the EP 0w-20 you have on your spreadsheet, VII content is shown above as being 1/2 what you've calculated. I suspect this may come down to VII type assumptions one is forced to make when making a calculator that covers such a broad range of products.

While SpectraSyn 8 would fail the CCS test at -35C (it's 4,800cP @ -30C, so would be about 9,600cP at -35C) we can see SpectraSyn 6 works (2,260cP @ -30C; ~4,520cP -35C) so I suspect it is quite possible to meet the target with a heavier base oil blend. If they are blending in some of the Synnestic AN's, that'll also negatively impact the VI, since they are quite low (Synnestic 5 is 65). My suspicion is that, if they confirm the PDS is accurate, we are seeing the artifact of a predominantly PAO and AN blend with a splash of VII to bump it up to 8.6. If the BOV was around 7cSt @ 100C, VII content would be basically negligible, acting basically likely a monograde, but wouldn't actually be one due to that splash of VII.
 
Well, we'll know for sure once Mobil gets back to us. I can't see why they'd change that figure unless it actually changed, they wouldn't need to touch it to adjust for SP.

On the low VII thing, Mobil has an extremely low VII (2.6%) 0w-20 in one of their blending guide examples:
View attachment 93242

Which I calculated as having a BOV KV100 of 5.38cSt based on the properties of SpectraSyn 6 and 4 (5.8cSt, 4.1cSt) and Esterex NP343 (4.3cSt) using the Widman calc. Interesting how, despite how close that oil is to the EP 0w-20 you have on your spreadsheet, VII content is shown above as being 1/2 what you've calculated. I suspect this may come down to VII type assumptions one is forced to make when making a calculator that covers such a broad range of products.

While SpectraSyn 8 would fail the CCS test at -35C (it's 4,800cP @ -30C, so would be about 9,600cP at -35C) we can see SpectraSyn 6 works (2,260cP @ -30C; ~4,520cP -35C) so I suspect it is quite possible to meet the target with a heavier base oil blend. If they are blending in some of the Synnestic AN's, that'll also negatively impact the VI, since they are quite low (Synnestic 5 is 65). My suspicion is that, if they confirm the PDS is accurate, we are seeing the artifact of a predominantly PAO and AN blend with a splash of VII to bump it up to 8.6. If the BOV was around 7cSt @ 100C, VII content would be basically negligible, acting basically likely a monograde, but wouldn't actually be one due to that splash of VII.
Again, I am practically certain that KV40 a typo. Density and KV100 are unchanged. Mobil datasheets have been an afterthought with errors and lack of significant figures. I would say, when you contact them, also complain about the lack of quality in their datasheets. If you look at my sheet, I also discovered an error in the Pennzoil data. There were also some HPF Lubricants errors, which they corrected after I caught them.

A little VII goes a long way. I wouldn't say 2.6% VII is extremely low. Perhaps under 1% would be considered low. I have the ExxonMobil blends in the table you posted in my calculator as well, and they perfectly agree with my calculations (see my sheet):

Estimated base-oil viscosity (HTFS) and VII content of selected oils
 
Again, I am practically certain that KV40 a typo. Density and KV100 are unchanged. Mobil datasheets have been an afterthought with errors and lack of significant figures. I would say, when you contact them, also complain about the lack of quality in their datasheets. If you look at my sheet, I also discovered an error in the Pennzoil data. There were also some HPF Lubricants errors, which they corrected after I caught them.
I've already fired off the e-mail, we'll see what they say.
A little VII goes a long way. I wouldn't say 2.6% VII is extremely low. Perhaps under 1% would be considered low.
Compared to some of the other grades? It's extremely low.
I have the ExxonMobil blends in the table you posted in my calculator as well, and they perfectly agree with my calculations (see my sheet)
The VII percentage lines up, but your BOV doesn't end up the same as what I calculated, not does it make sense. You've got a BO KV100 of 6.75, which isn't even possible, as the base oils are 5.8, 4.1 and 4.8cSt respectively. I ended up with 5.38cSt.
 
Last edited:
I've already fired off the e-mail, we'll see what they say.

Compared to some of the other grades? It's extremely low.

The VII percentage lines up, but your BOV doesn't end up the same as what I calculated, not does it make sense. You've got a BO KV100 of 6.75, which isn't even possible, as the base oils are 5.8, 4.1 and 4.8cSt respectively. I ended up with 5.38cSt.
My base-oil viscosity values also have the contribution from the DDI pack, the latter of which increases the effective base-oil viscosity significantly. The DDI pack is far more viscous than the "bare" base oil, even though its ratio to the bare base oil in that table is only 1:7.
 
My base-oil viscosity values also have the contribution from the DDI pack, the latter of which increases the effective base-oil viscosity significantly. The DDI pack is far more viscous than the "bare" base oil, even though its ratio to the bare base oil in that table is only 1:7.

OK, you might want to include that in a note at the top of the table or something, as then it's not really the base oil viscosity, but BOV + DI, and that's not clear that this is what the BO KV100 figure is from even the description of the document (which mentions DI, but it's alongside BO DV150).

Working that backwards, you've got the DI package with a 100C visc of 48cSt, which, if accurate, yeah, would definitely have a pretty big impact on the viscosity of the base oils it is being mixed into.

I'm going to tag @High Performance Lubricants and see if he can confirm that figure as being roughly right for the DI package.

Appreciate all the work you've put into this doc BTW.
 
Last edited:
OK, you might want to include that in a note at the top of the table or something, as then it's not really the base oil viscosity, but BOV + DI, and that's not clear that this is what the BO KV100 figure is from even the description of the document (which mentions DI, but it's alongside BO DV150).

Working that backwards, you've got the DI package with a 100C visc of 48cSt, which, if accurate, yeah, would definitely have a pretty big impact on the viscosity of the base oils it is being mixed into.

I'm going to tag @High Performance Lubricants and see if he can confirm that figure as being roughly right for the DI package.

Appreciate all the work you've put into this doc BTW.
For example, the Afton HiTEC® 11410 passenger-car engine-oil additive package reduced-SAPS top-tier additive technology ACEA 2016 C2/C3/C5 & API SP is 177 cSt:


Incidentally, seeing how these cheap generic add packs are ACEA-&-API-dual-certified, we know how the European oils are overrated over API oils.

The best information on how the viscosity depends on the base oil, DDI pack, and VII with tons of systematic data can be found in the Hugh Spikes paper. It is open-access:

 
Last edited:
Back
Top