"Peel & Stick" heaters

[rob-the-oil-nut]

I have been looking at some nifty devices that I didn't even know existed until a few weeks ago. They are peel & stick heaters.
I was a tad unhappy when we couldn't post links, and I got a link or two from a BITOG member or two, but I won't be posting links to any...so I'll just keyboard about it

They are under 1/10th inch thick; nominally 0.07 to 0.08" but I don't know it they are thicker in the middle where the main conductors are, or what. Has anyone tried them?
I have a few specific questions / concerns:
1) Road debris: Sand, salt, slush, snow, stones; and despite cautions about 'direct contact with high-pressure washers' I really think I'll be getting a few washes that include undercarriage washing over the next years. I'll go through a few deep puddles in spring, too (it's fun!)
2) One salesman urged me to get one on the trans fluid pan as well as oil pan, said something about trans fluid needing to be warm just as much as oil. Is this true, or is he just trying to make more sales?
3) Under the battery: I was warned that they could cause the plastic underside of the battery to melt / warp and even boil the battery fluid. I did not know they were that hot (the one I was thinking of for under the battery is maybe 50 Watts). I can promise to use it only colder than -20, and I am also thinking of some 1/10" sheet metal in a rectangle just a bit smaller than the battery. Cut out where the heater will be so it has room and won't get crushed by the battery. Cover this with another rectangle of sheet metal to dissipate the heat a bit, and perhaps sandwich the 'heater-cutout sheet' between two sheets...or should I just get a battery blanket or something that is made specifically for overnight battery use? I say overnight because the ads state these heaters can warm up the oil by about 70 F (above ambient) in about 1 hour. That puts this little project of mine into the 'delightfully over-kill' area for all but perhaps a handful of nights for the winter.
The ads also remind excessively that heat rises...would the heating of the oil have any significant impact on the temperature of the coolant?
Wouldn't the amount of energy required to heat the oil over 100F (in -20 or colder with plenty of engine components for the heat to spread to) be well over 500 Watts? Wouldn't the amount of energy required to bring the oil or ATF to 212 F be WAY out of reach for these heaters?
Any Canadians or nothern-US people have any experience with these sorts of things??
THANKS!
Rob-the-oil-nut

 

[rugerman1]

Oil pan heaters are the easiest improvement you can make for cold winter operation.
I have a Wolverene Model 9, 3" dia pan heater on my '89 S-10.The oil pan holds 3&1/2 quarts,so I choose the 125 watt heater.The're easy to install and cheap to operate.My model is like having a single light bulb as far as energy use.I have no problem keeping it plugged in 24/7 in the winter.This is a pic from a Model 40, 500 watt heater

 

[Gary Allan]

Rob, before you do the battery ..or are considering it ...take a look at how new your system is. My 99 and 02 TJ (jeeps - and I imagine that this is the same for most contemporary vehicles) use battery temp as a sensored input for the PCM to regulate the altenator output. I would think an integrated trickle charger would be more advised given this situation.

I don't have experience with this. Perhaps some Candian members have delt with this and found it to be a "non-issue" ...but you may be giving a false signal to the PCM.

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Rob, before you do the battery ..or are considering it ...take a look at how new your system is. My 99 and 02 TJ (jeeps - and I imagine that this is the same for most contemporary vehicles) use battery temp as a sensored input for the PCM to regulate the altenator output. ....

---

I don't see a problem with that. Whether one's battery is warm because they have the good sense to live in a moderate climate

or because they have a battery warmer, it takes the same voltage to charge the battery properly.

 

[Gary Allan]

Just thinking that the warmer itself will fool the sensor. Mine is located directly below the battery ..the proposed location of Rob's installation. Now if the sensor sees the base of the battery temp because of heaters placed on the sides ..then I don't see a problem. My thoughts also were that an integrated trickle charger (not with "clips" but rather hard wired to the terminals like my winch and routed into the gang plug for the warmers) would have the desired effect with probably less current draw then the heater.


You may very well be correct though. I'm just into "extreme detail" on just about everything. Splitting hairs is my form of OCD

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:


You may very well be correct though. I'm just into "extreme detail" on just about everything. Splitting hairs is my form of OCD

---

Mine too, perhaps you have noticed

Point well taken about the temp sensor location. I think your OCD comment is correct.

 

[Doug]

Ok, I have a ?:

Does the cold affect the battery as much as it does affect a cold engine? I am just curious if you had a heater on the motor, and had a good battery, it would require less of the battery than if you didn't have the engine heater, right?

 

[Gary Allan]

Well (a little OCD chuckle in the background with "Twilight Zone" theme music playing

), let's explore the various effects of cold on both.


One could reason that "starting" isn't that much of an issue in the modern FI engine. Fuel vaporization or atomization isn't an issue. One could reason that the main advantage of the "warmed" engine is the actual "post startup" reduction in wear causing conditions (lazy oil flow, etc.) and "warm up" wear (fuel dilution, moisture evacuation, etc.).

Now the battery has a deminished capacity due to cold. Internal resistance is increased ..as is the resistance in the conductors to and from the powered device.

Both will suffer more "wear" or fatique without the ancillary devices being used in exremely cold enviroments. Typically we don't view a battery as an expensive maintenance item due to its frequency of replacement and relative cheap cost.

So ...I'd say that the battery will suffer just about as much "damage" with a warmed engine without being warmed itself. This naturally depends on the condition of the engine in question. I'm assumiing no "issues" that would prevent or inhibit normal "starting".

 

[Bob Woods]

I don't see a problem with that. Whether one's battery is warm because they have the good sense to live in a moderate climate or because they have a battery warmer, it takes the same voltage to charge the battery properly.

I've always thought the reason for reducing the charging voltage was to limit the water boil off for the cells.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
My 99 and 02 TJ (jeeps - and I imagine that this is the same for most contemporary vehicles) use battery temp as a sensored input for the PCM to regulate the altenator output

---

That is mostly limited to Chrysler vehicles. Most other makes use a temperature sensor inside the voltage regulator, which is usually mounted to the alternator. The PCM has nothing to do with the voltage regulator on most vehicles.

 

[rob-the-oil-nut]

Gary and XS650, I never thought of that, I will look into that for sure, but I wonder then about people with battery blankets, which are quite common.

Doug, good question. I thought people in Denver had at least heard of a frozen battery, though. Yup, at -10 F a battery has 33% the juice of when it's 80 F, and below -25 it is a LOT worse...then again the textbook I read that from is over 20 years old and I suspect battery technology has come a bit of a way since then. (the next chart states that a battery will freeze at +18 F if its specific gravity is 1.100 and specific gravity of car battery electrolyte hasn't come up in many conversations in the last decade

Bottom line is, batteries are still VERY ineffective when cold. Oil may not want to move much, but it never really freezes like a battery can. If you can't grasp or picture that come here for December and January, and you will!
Maybe it's MY OCD, or fall paranoia. I see it's 30 F and I get real convinced I cannot make it through another. Amazingly, bodies adapt to the point where I could think of walking a mile with nothing on my head at -20. Last winter I went for a walk when the wind chill was -40 and I thought "It must be how they measure it. It really isn't that bad out!" (*Environment Canada USED to measure wind chill in Watts per square metre, a much more accurate and scientific method, but after years of hearing we had a wind chill of 1800 or 2200, people, mainly in Ontario & Quebec, whined / lobbied enough to have it switched to the less accurate, less scientific, 'temperature equivelants')
Thanks again
Rob

 

[rob-the-oil-nut]

New sort of sub-topic here: RUST
The following is the essense of what my mechanic friend emailed me....

Well, I hope you know the number 1 issue with those things is that it heats up and rusts the oil pan right out. And because it is at the bottome of the pan, they can get knocked off easily and cause other damages. Like bent oil pans. [dealership name removed] installs those things standard. And lots of problems.
Do more research before you decide.
The best thing I can recommend to you for a Winnipeg winter; the best thing that I have and trust more than anything that my car will start up everytime. BATTERY TRICKLE CHARGER . It cost 30 to 69 dollars at CT. Uses only two amps to charge you battery (that is a very small amount compared to block heater battery warmer - doesn't work ). It shuts itself off if your battery is fully charged. The biggest enemy of a car battery is the COLD. It loses it capacity: The colder it is, the worse it gets. And the bigger cold cranking amp rating is just BS as well....the colder it gets the less that matters. If at all. A full charged 600 cold cranking amp bat will out due a 1000 rated battery that just sits in the car freezing over night. The trickle charger is your best friend. it warms the battery and charges it like new all the time.
Think about it.... And CT has it on sale.
As an example of what happened to me: My moms car is parked outside with full windchill effect. Not plugged in. Just the battery trickle
charger plugged in. My car in a garage with block heater plugged in. I have two batteries in my car by the way (don't ask why ). Guess which
starts no problem? Her car was a 1997... mine is a 2002. Both had origional batteries in them.

As far as I'm concerned, doing more research means posting on BITOG!

So, two new questions: Anyone had a peel & stick heater cause rust? Is there a coating to put over it? (sprayable tar was suggested by a co-worker; maybe Tremclad, silicone, epoxy...)
Anyone in Canada or northern US have a peel & stick type for years without problems?
And about the trickle charger. Would it be possible to install one under the hood from now to March or so?
In particular I was thinking of the "Eliminator Intelligent Battery Charger; Item 11-1510-4" at CT. I went there, it's a small unit and I asked if they could install it under the hood until March or so. They referred me to a more custom-install place called Advance; more known for installations of top-end stereos, car alarms, and LED-laden car toys

THANKS!
Rob

[ October 23, 2004, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: rob-the-oil-nut ]

 

[n8wvi]

I'm working on a heated drain plug. Not sure how it would fare w/ a wind chill, but in the garage, it's been great! And for a huge $5 investment, it seemed like a good experiment. I'm working on a new prototype now that heats the oil, not the oil pan. This should work better than my existing prototype, especially w/ a wind chill. Now the big question is, what's the interest level in a thermally regulated oil heater that heats from the bottom and doesn't rely on those 'sticky pads'???

Dave